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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The RCVS has renewed its Stonewall contract

38 replies

TheCurrywurstPrion · 08/04/2022 18:33

Sadly, despite the efforts of myself and a few other vets, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has renewed its contract with Stonewall until March 2023.

This is particularly galling as I had paid my fees for the next year only a day or two earlier. I have a choice, but vets working within the profession or in related work in the UK have no choice, but to be members, which costs £364.

So far those I’ve been in contact with, who got in touch with the RCVS, have received no reply whatsoever from the Royal College. They haven’t sent so much as an acknowledgment that we wrote.

There were a few others I spoke to here a few weeks back. If anyone here contacted the RCVS about this, I would be interested to hear.

Trying to work out now what steps to take now. Feel free to contact me in a private message if you don’t want to do so on the thread.

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MamaSharkington · 10/04/2022 10:07

@Hortensiateapot @TheCurrywurstPrion

I think your stance about equality of all the protected characteristics is a good one.

I'd perhaps frame it as undue influence of one philosophical belief/pressure group. So you could also FOI the Equalities Impact Assessment of being part of Stonewall, and then ask some really difficult questions around how they've considered impact on other protected characteristics e.g. freedom of belief, making the links and stating your concerns as articulated here. Making explicit how it is curtailing your philosophical freedom in your personal life.

Then if any of these awful things come to pass, you can point out that they were warned they were potentially breaking the law, or likely to. With paper trail. It will certainly help the legal case if that's what it going to take for them to take the cotton wool out if their brains on this one.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 10/04/2022 09:55

To be fair, the low score in the stonewall league table is probably a good thing (presumably they haven’t gone all-out with the erasure of women).

Yes, I confess I was pleased by the pathetic showing. Given the genuine diversity on the council (disability, sex, race) I think paying Stonewall for something obviously not needed, and so obviously biased in favour of two protected characteristics at the expense of all others, is what is truly outrageous.

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Hortensiateapot · 10/04/2022 08:08

Seahorses, clownfish and reptiles who’s eggs’ sex are determined by temperature Grin

From my pov it is the bias in taking advice from an interest group rather than a neutral source which represents the law in the spirit it was written. A group which advises erasing female specific language from maternity policies then lies about that on radio 4 (see Emma Barnet’s interview with Nancy Kelly - sure there are threads somewhere). As I see it, it’s akin to getting employment advice purely from “pregnant then screwed” rather than ACAS. Do they sign up to schemes for all the protected categories, or is it just super-special stonewall?

Bovine reproductive specialists are quite entitled to believe in gender woo as long as the rest of us are entitled to believe in biological facts without prejudice or disciplinary bias. A large majority of veterinary graduates are female these days, and some of these are bound to be transmen so it is important that they feel cared for and represented, but that shouldn’t be at the expense of issues regarding women working around anaesthetics and ionising radiation in pregnancy, menopause policy etc.

To be fair, the low score in the stonewall league table is probably a good thing (presumably they haven’t gone all-out with the erasure of women).

SwissBall · 09/04/2022 23:36

We've asked her whether she's ever encountered a cow that's been born in the wrong body

Grin

You know I have always seen veterinary science as unrelentingly heteronormative and I don’t see why it should escape being queered.

NitroNine · 09/04/2022 23:21

It is vital they withdraw from Stonewall because obviously THEN my [half-]kneazles’ vet will stop mis-speciesing them. They are being OPPRESSED by this insistence they are cats. It’s literal violence at every turn & the RCVS should be setting an example/doing better/Being Kind.

#FantasticBeastsAreBeasts

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 21:32

It seems they did respond in part to an earlier FOI request.

Despite sending an HR person to a one day conference that cost more than £400 in 2019, the RCVS still only scored 28,5 out of a possible 200 points and were ranked 430 out of 503, and 51st out of 54 in the esucation sector.

So good to know that our money is being well spent.

I expect, with all the efficient companies and groups leaving, we could possibly jump right up into the low 300s this year.

🍾

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TheFnozwhowasmirage · 09/04/2022 21:31

I still laugh when I remember the plopper who posted on here that sheep have gender identities.
Being a sheep farmer,I was obviously VERY interested in this assertion and asked for evidence.But you will be shocked to learn,that none there came.
That little pearl of wisdom still makes me laugh, especially now,in the middle of lambing.

veronicagoldberg · 09/04/2022 21:25

You'd think vets would know the difference between the sexes...

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 20:34

That’s bizarre Pluvia. The idea that quiet bulls are transcows is possibly the most insane thing I’ve heard. There are some lovely, quiet, calm men, so that’s obviously not an indicator of womanhood. And there are many rampant men who claim they are women, who are about as aggressive as it’s possible to be.

You could send an FOI request to ask some awkward questions. Then they are obliged to respond.

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bellinisurge · 09/04/2022 20:27

My cat is currently identifying as magnificent

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 20:22

My dog is currently identifying as sleepy, though I expect he could very quickly convert to identifying as hungry if I stood up, went to the kitchen and opened the fridge. His d’gender is very fluid like that.

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Pluvia · 09/04/2022 20:10

My partner and I know someone who runs a very successful livestock veterinary practice that specialises in super dairy herds. She's incredibly highly-qualified, has a PhD, is interviewed and quoted as an expert in her field — and she's criticised us for being Hateful Bigots and said she believes people can be born in the wrong body. We've asked her whether she's ever encountered a cow that's been born in the wrong body and she's talked about some cows being particularly aggressive and some bulls being particularly passive and has suggested that perhaps this is evidence. She sees it in terms of hormones and sexual stereotypes among cattle.

She's yet another example of an incredibly clever, science-based individual who can be talked into anything. I think the gullibility of 'experts' is one of the most frightening aspects of this situation.

Signalbox · 09/04/2022 19:22

I think it’s guaranteed they won’t respond. I only learned the contract had been renewed through a third party.

You could send an FOI request to ask some awkward questions. Then they are obliged to respond.

www.rcvs.org.uk/accessing-information-policy/

respectmysex · 09/04/2022 17:43

For those who are not aware, the MRCVS is the equivalent for vets of the GMC for doctors. They are the competent authority that deals with disciplinary investigations for complaints about a vets practice or their conduct.

OP makes a very good point about how Stonewall influence the outcome of disciplinary proceedings and that vets need to be very careful as they will struggle to get a fair assessment of a complaint if all the staff and advisors (who are not lawyers) are stonewalled. It is the admin staff who decide to proceed to a hearing on a complaint - if it is one about Gender Critical views for instance, the first sensible take on it will be at a hearing itself when the lawyers get there.

AlternativelyWired · 09/04/2022 17:35

Cats and dogs generally identify as hungry don't they?

Soontobe60 · 09/04/2022 17:24

@Clymene

Bloody hell. Of all professions, veterinary science is one where I'd imagine sex of your clients is a massive part of the job. Spaying, gelding, castration, sexing animals, insemination of livestock.

It's hard to think of reasons they need advice from stonewall

You’ve clearly forgotten about the non binary dogs and cats!
LittleWhingingWoman · 09/04/2022 17:21

It's almost as if someone wants to influence vets to say that there's no such thing as biological sex.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 17:17

@NotADressPerson

Ex Vet Nurse here. Would've loved to have worked with you OP. :)
Would have been good. 😊 I always fancied starting my own practice. Sadly I got caught up in life and never managed it.
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NotADressPerson · 09/04/2022 08:11

Ex Vet Nurse here. Would've loved to have worked with you OP. :)

Hortensiateapot · 09/04/2022 07:32

Some great points Currywurst. Particularly the social media one. I have a colleague who got into some online argy bargy about brexit back in the day. Another who was targeted online by an unhappy client when their pet sadly couldn’t be saved. It’s not a big stretch to imagine someone complaining to the rcvs about a member’s social media, or the targeting of letter signatories.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 06:09

Also I do understand their rationale for wanting to support an organisation which on the surface represents LGBT people - especially as the profession is aiming to open up in diversity along many axes (including race and class also).

I understand the rationale, and given that recent past presidents of the RCVS have included a man who uses a wheelchair and a black woman, I suspect they actually have a much wider interest in diversity than Stonewall, which I find ironic.

Also, I don’t feel stonewall policy affects our patients/service users in the same way as medics and generally practices are smaller so staff changing areas/toilets are rarely shared in the same way.

I expect if you asked them, they would tell you the only people affected are the RCVS staff. However the social media policy has Stonewall’s fingerprints all over it and that does affect us. As well as the usual of missing out the protected characteristic of sex, they cover transgender identity instead of gender reassignment (there’s even a little reminder that transgender identity has to be taken more seriously as it’s covered by hate crime legislation). More seriously, I consider the remit is so broad that it is likely to have a chilling effect on free speech:

”veterinary surgeons should avoid making, posting or facilitating statements, images or videos that:

b. cause undue distress”

My guess is that lots of vets will be blissfully unaware of the policy, but I can imagine that if a complaint was received by the disciplinary committee, they might easily react in a kneejerk manner and tell the vet to stop posting. It’s not beyond the imagination that they would consult Stonewall either. Given what happened to Alison Bailey, I have no faith that any process would be fair and reasonable. I doubt they’d strike anyone off, but any vet told to shut up by the RCVS would be faced with a difficult choice as you can’t practice as a vet in the UK unless you’re a member.

Could you join forces with Hortensia and/or others and write a joint letter?

I did consider this, however such actions require contacts and as anyone following all this probably knows, one thing transactivists do very well is collective action. Given that I already know a few vets who are for women’s rights and recognize that Stonewall are actively campaigning to erode them, but who feel unable to reveal their names for fear of reprisals, I think any letter we sent would same met with a counter letter with more signatures.

I think what really needs to happen is that we need to raise awareness. Most vets at the moment are probably unaware that the RCVS is linked to Stonewall, and even if they know, most probably aren’t aware of how much their remit has changed and how damaging their policies are now.

Perhaps a very carefully worded letter to Kate Richards pointing out that big organisations, particularly government departments, are leaving stonewall might have an effect.

Having worked at a small charity I’d guess your letter has just reached someone’s Admin Assistant or middle manager.

I sent emails addressed to the president and the CEO and also to the general email address. It was carefully constructed and reasonable as I am aware that sometimes it would be easy to look overinvested or paranoid. I mentioned that other organisations were leaving and why.

I'm not a vet but I do use veterinary services. Is there anything we can do as customers that might help force change here?

It’s quite difficult, because there’s probably very little direct effect on clients. I guess if you’re a valuable client with close links, it’s a topic you might raise as something you’ve read about on the internet, but other than that, I don’t have anything at the moment.

I don’t have a network, so perhaps that’s something I need to think about as a first line. There’s no clear way forward at present, but I have felt quite cheered to know I’m certainly not the only person who cares about this.

I require my MRCVS to practice, I am required to pay the RCVS money to achieve this, RCVS funds Stonewall.
With my money. That I can't not give them.

This is what’s so galling. I hate the idea that I am supporting such a group, even if indirectly and even if it’s only a small part of the fees. It’s money that could be directed to something that was less damaging.

I feel there must be some sort of precedent for this - can professional bodies act in a political manner?

This might be something to look at. Given that government departments, the civil service and the police have all been signed up to Stonewall at some points, I doubt professional bodies are any different. I will try to look at whether there’s anything that might prevent them, however.

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FeelingVeryDisturbed · 08/04/2022 23:06

Pissed off.
I require my MRCVS to practice, I am required to pay the RCVS money to achieve this, RCVS funds Stonewall.
With my money. That I can't not give them.
I feel there must be some sort of precedent for this - can professional bodies act in a political manner?
Raging.

BattyOrange · 08/04/2022 22:48

I'm not a vet but I do use veterinary services. Is there anything we can do as customers that might help force change here?

Charley50 · 08/04/2022 22:42

Maybe they'll start forcing vets to ask about animal's gender identity.

WalrusSubmarine · 08/04/2022 22:33

But I presume the people actually working at head office are admin assistants, small marketing or fundraising teams, an IT person, an HR person and then just a few very senior people who are actually trained as vets that do policy.

Having worked at a small charity I’d guess your letter has just reached someone’s Admin Assistant or middle manager. I’m surprised you haven’t had any response at all however- I’d be annoyed about that.