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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian gunning for JKR again

87 replies

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 08/04/2022 09:03

www.theguardian.com/film/2022/apr/08/fantastic-beasts-and-where-to-cancel-them-how-the-wizarding-world-lost-its-magic

The phone line between Stonewall & the guardian must be red hot at the moment. After yesterdays patronising “dining across the divide”
‘And so gentle reader I met a TW and they were nice and I learned the error of my ways and was so grateful to be educated. Thank you Guardian, give TW all the things’ piece yesterday plus Zoe Williams “be kind you bigots I’ve never needed a single sex space myself” article, today we have “jkr has upset the kids and now no one cares about Harry Potter anymore”

Can’t wait to see what they come up with tomorrow!

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/04/2022 19:33

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

Well I wondered what was coming next and it’s this

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/trans-people-mental-health-crisis-point-uk-warn-experts

Do the likes of stonewall never stop & look at themselves and think “maybe just maybe we shouldn’t have kept telling trans ppl they could have everything they demanded and peddling the message that ppl who don’t give in to those demands are committing literal violence on trans ppl” do they ever stop & bloody think about what they’ve done?

I'm sure the mental health of many trans people will have been affected after recent events. Being told you have complete freedom to breach other's boundaries, having privileged access to government / organisations and able to influence them to remove other's rights in favour of yours, even changing our common language and upturning science and facts in favour of your own beliefs and interests is unprecedented for any group.

I feel for all the young people caught up in this and getting the backlash. Few of them will have benefitted from the gravy train in the same way that the (mainly) middle aged born males running these groups have. This won't end well unless and until there's a massive change in attitude and respect for others at the top of these organisations.

nepeta · 08/04/2022 19:28

It is not just about having a wee in women's toilets or entering other single-sex places. It is having the whole vocabulary of biological sex erased (at least for the female sex), women's sports erased, and sex-based oppression turned into something we cannot even mention let alone address.

Fundamentally, for some trans activists it is about colonising the female sex.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 08/04/2022 19:20

How predictable that helen immediately starts with “we just want to peeeeee”

Maybe just maybe helen might stop & think about Helen’s part in the massive overreach TRA made encouraged by helen & co which has led to this pushback.

But that would require helen to have some self awareness….

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Peregrina · 08/04/2022 19:16

Helen Belcher, the chair of the education and advocacy group TransActual and a Lib Dem councillor, said: “I am furious that our equalities body is telling me that I am a second-class citizen and can only do things if everyone else is OK with it. Now every trans woman in the country is gearing up to fight to have a wee. It’s vile

I read that in the Guardian. I am afraid I thought, 'Join the club' - biological women are often treated as second class citizens. As one actively involved in the early 70's wave of feminism, we fought hard for our rights, so join us in the battle that the rest of us have to face.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 08/04/2022 18:38

Indeed nepeta. There is a massive mental health crisis in this country. I’m sure the mental health of transgender ppl have been affected by the news stories but then the mental health of women has been affected by reading news stories of women raped on hospital wards & then being told that there were no men present or of politicians being unable to define what a woman is as if woman as a sex category had disappeared. I know it’s affected my mental health knowing how quickly & carelessly womens rights have been thrown under a bus

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nepeta · 08/04/2022 18:33

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

Well I wondered what was coming next and it’s this

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/trans-people-mental-health-crisis-point-uk-warn-experts

Do the likes of stonewall never stop & look at themselves and think “maybe just maybe we shouldn’t have kept telling trans ppl they could have everything they demanded and peddling the message that ppl who don’t give in to those demands are committing literal violence on trans ppl” do they ever stop & bloody think about what they’ve done?

I have empathy with all who suffer from fragile mental health, and I am very sorry if the current debates threaten the mental health of transgender people.

As an aside, I'd love to see statistics on the mental health crises of all the groups which have been affected by various recent events, not just by this particular issue (the war in Ukraine, Covid-caused isolation, women losing their jobs in higher numbers, the economy).

But on this issue it is particularly important to extend empathy in both directions. The Guardian's compassion goes in only one direction, and the possible solutions it proposes are also of only one type.

littlbrowndog · 08/04/2022 18:30

Was dead spiteful piece

I heard that 5 live as well.

Do film critics ever do spiteful pieces because of the person who write the script ?

Antarcticant · 08/04/2022 18:22

Or perhaps

“Extrapolating a threadbare story from what was originally a slim encyclopaedia of outlandish creatures had resulted in something very close to a two-hour game of Pokémon Go.”

Oh the slander…. I’ve caught the first 151 Pokémon and almost reached level 40!

This is a very valid criticism of the industry-wide practice of franchises stretching material to breaking point in order to milk gullible fans for as much money as possible.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 08/04/2022 18:12

Well I wondered what was coming next and it’s this

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/trans-people-mental-health-crisis-point-uk-warn-experts

Do the likes of stonewall never stop & look at themselves and think “maybe just maybe we shouldn’t have kept telling trans ppl they could have everything they demanded and peddling the message that ppl who don’t give in to those demands are committing literal violence on trans ppl” do they ever stop & bloody think about what they’ve done?

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DameHelena · 08/04/2022 17:30

@nepeta

DameHelena, I don't think we disagree. In general I would want the debate to be both deeper and more open while staying courteous. The current situation is untenable.
Couldn't agree more! I do feel like things are shifting.
Peregrina · 08/04/2022 17:27

I don't know why the Guardian is peddling the line Transwomen are women - they are not. What's in it for the Guardian?

LizzieSiddal · 08/04/2022 17:27

It would be amusing if JK bought the Guardian.

I don't mean like bought a copy. I mean, bought the company.

This is such a fabulous idea. Even if her people just made (quite loud) enquiries into the possibility of it, can you imagine the reaction of certain people.Grin

zanahoria · 08/04/2022 16:55

At a rough guess less than one percent of JKR's fans care about this issue.

They seem to be the obsessed adults fans who spend their time playing quidditch and writing fanfic

The kids do not give a shit

StageRage · 08/04/2022 16:50

I ditched my lifelong subscription to The Guardian when they ditched Lyn Gardner as theatre critic, to save money, but continued to publish vacuous 'lifestyle' rubbish.

LittleWhingingWoman · 08/04/2022 16:47

To clarify - obviously it's the talents of a massive production team etc bringing it to life but it's really obvious whose brilliance and hard work has inspired every scene.

LittleWhingingWoman · 08/04/2022 16:45

Oh and it's got JKR all over it. Every moment is purely her magic. She's duly credited and the losers can't separate her from her work no matter how many academic essays they spawn to attempt to justify the cognitive dissonance they feel!

nepeta · 08/04/2022 16:38

DameHelena, I don't think we disagree. In general I would want the debate to be both deeper and more open while staying courteous. The current situation is untenable.

LittleWhingingWoman · 08/04/2022 16:31

Right. I just watched it.
It's brilliant.

This is pure jealousy and spite. That's all. The writer of this article cannot contain his envy.

What a nasty little hack.

DameHelena · 08/04/2022 16:27

nepeta, Ada's 'original views are her saying 'I don’t believe in the trope that people are going to self-identify…My beef is with sports' etc, are they not?
You are right, I think, that the trans woman, Rebecca, is informed by her own experience while Ada didn't know much about the topic – she says so, when she talks about why she wanted to meet Rebecca.
This is a short feature and there's no background given; what you see is what you get. It's literally an account of a lunch meeting between two people and their conversation. It's a somewhat flawed format, for sure, in that sometimes you hear something one person said only from the POV of the other person reporting it, so you can't be sure exactly what was said.

I'm not sure if you and I are talking at cross-purposes. I don't think we're disagreeing as such. I hope not anyway, and I hope I'm not misunderstanding you.

Andante57 · 08/04/2022 16:09

There’s an article about this in the Spectator which says ‘Rowling's views on same-sex spaces are somehow more controversial than domestic abuse. Grim’

‘For Gilbey and the Guardian though, alleged wife-beating and choking women in public were 'small beer' compared to Rowling writing about own personal experiences and views on the transgender debate’.

nepeta · 08/04/2022 16:02

@DameHelena

nepeta, I'm not sure what you mean, sorry. Isn't the premise of this feature simply that two people with different views get together? How informed or otherwise each party is varies from week to week, as far as I recall from the ones I've read.
Perhaps that is the case. But the piece I read nowhere explained what the original views of the two people in it were. The impression I got was that the trans woman had the information of her own experience while the other woman didn't know much anything about the topic.

Other stories may clarify this issue. I have not read them, so my apologies if I misinterpreted the context.

DameHelena · 08/04/2022 15:57

nepeta, I'm not sure what you mean, sorry.
Isn't the premise of this feature simply that two people with different views get together?
How informed or otherwise each party is varies from week to week, as far as I recall from the ones I've read.

BacklashBacklash · 08/04/2022 15:49

@Peregrina

I wrote to the Guardian yesterday to complain about the Zoe William's article, especially the last paragraph. I am really angry, women like JKRowling have worked bloody hard for their successes.

Whereas these transwomen in sport find that they are not good enough to win as men, so they will have a go as women.

And then quite literally coast to the finishing line, hardly using their legs, because beating the runner up by 37 seconds again might give the game away somewhat.
nauticant · 08/04/2022 15:49

May I suggest that people posting links to Guardian articles also/instead post an image of the article (if this is allowed)?

The way to do this is to archive the Guardian article to an archiving site and then to link to the archived webpage. Unfortunately when we do this MNHQ deletes the posts. I think there would be a similar response by MNHQ to an image of a Guardian article.

amberandcheese · 08/04/2022 15:40

They can keep trying to pull her down, but it won't work. I was at the studio tour last weekend, and it was rammed. The gift shops queue was out the shop.

I've just finished reading the Ickabog to my daughter, after having read her the Christmas Pig. They were both such lovely, heartbreaking and clever books. She's got the new Strike book coming out later in the year... I'm sorry, Guardian, but she is just as popular as she ever was -- if not more so!

Harry Potter belongs to her. We are just lucky she has shared it with us all.