Single sex spaces

Notcreative, I'm interested in wwyd if Annie was challenged in the toilets by another woman in your presence. Would you stay quiet or feel the compunction to stand up for Annie and argue for Annie's right to use female-only space?

And what would you do if Annie showed up with their friend Sandra. You hadn't met Sandra before and didn't really get on through dinner...

No, of course not. Men who've undergone castration are still men. Men who've undergone penectomy are still men.

Women aren't just men without willies.

Notcreative, I'm interested in wwyd if Annie was challenged in the toilets by another woman in your presence. Would you stay quiet or feel the compunction to stand up for Annie and argue for Annie's right to use female-only space?

‘I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?’

It’s just guilt. I would avoid the friendship because however much I liked someone, I wouldn’t be able to pretend I thought they had changed sex and I wouldn’t want the conflict.

In the longer term, I think you should have a ponder on whether you are happy to be used in this way. Your acceptance of their use of female toilets is validation to them, and you are also a bit of a human shield. There's a bit of power-play in place, isn't there? Annie gets what he wants and you get conflicted.

The thing is why is Annie your responsibility? If their well being and friendship depends on you pretending along side them then that's a pretty shaky foundation. Either they are so fragile they need help because making these demands of people is extremely unreasonable and emotional black mail..

Or they are getting off on controlling the narrative. Knowing you are having to think about every word you say and every action in case you slip up. Of someone dictated what you wear or what you ate wheb you went out you'd think them controlling.

But make you lie to yourelf and change the meaning if words inside your head? That's apparently acceptable. I dont see a difference tbh its power and control. Why do you feel you have to? If its because you have been.condotioned to " be komd" it's time to re evaluate your attitude and stand up fir yourself. If you are worried about their reaction why? Is it not their responsibility to seek the tools to deal.with the world around them.

Do you view yourself as a collection of feelings inside a man's head? Because that's what you say when you go along with it.

No.

I have a great deal of sympathy for those who go as far as to have bottom surgery but I don't think they can safely be included in female spaces.

Ignoring the potential for abuse of the system or criminal behaviour which others have addressed.

When it comes to hospital wards, intimate examinations, swimming pool/gym changing rooms, strip searches etc part of the issue is the old "we all have the same parts" thing. There is a level of reassurance that everyone is female and has female parts and is the same. It isn't about sexual attraction it is about being naked around others the same as you. A transwoman isn't the same even after surgery and shouldn't be in the female space. Inclusion of women of faith and survivors of sexual violence is important and those women deserve as much consideration as transwomen, they shouldn't be sacrificed for the benefit of men who present as women.

I'm less concerned about public loos and shop changing cubicles, I think safe gender neutral is the way forward and where that is not practical a third space.

Prisons I think are different again and physical power and offending behaviour is also a factor. Probably some kind of special unit third space might be the answer.

We have been forced into using convoluted language to close down the loopholes.

You seem to be using a very narrowly-defined notion of "threat". Just because they have no penis with which to rape, they still have their height / reach / strength with which they could intimidate, and, if they felt like it, sexually assault or pulverise a woman. The only 'threat' that has been removed is the threat of pregnancy. Note also that they were subjected all their lives to male socialisation, so as well as height / reach / strength, they will have entitlement.

Let's assume this hypothetical surgically-altered male is absolutely no physical threat at all. Does that mean he can enter a female-only space? The answer is still no. A single-sex space is there to not just remove threat, but also to provide privacy and dignity. Women have a right to both. A male swanning in to a female space makes most women uncomfortable because their privacy and dignity have been breached.

Serious question, @Notcreativeatall - what about the women who will be driven from their single-sex spaces if your hypothetical male is allowed entry? The women who have been sexually assaulted (a hefty percentage of all women) or who are of a religion that forbids sharing spaces with males not of their family. Are these women to be subject to the 'urinary leash' of never being able to be in public spaces for longer than their bladder can accommodate?

I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

Recognise my cognitive dissonance is created by my emotions in the context of an individual and that that would never be an appropriate basis for legislation or making decisions on behalf of other women.

Safeguarding is not yours to give away.

A lot of the answers were like this, years ago I would have said yes but now I say no. Activists took the piss big time, Stonewall saw a new cash cow, and together they ruined it for everyone.

I am female I have been sexually harassed by both men and women, one I found annoying the other frightening, can you guess which one was which?

It’s not as simple as that. It’s not solely about ‘threat’, but about female dignity and comfort, which is both a generally recognised need, and a highly subjective concern.

and religion and culture, we have equal rights in the UK, the Koran doesnt speak about bottom surgery it says men and women.

It's been tried. It led to the mess we're in where women have been excluded, unable to access services and raped. It cannot be gatekept, the GRA was exactly that compromise. Unfortunately the piss has been very, very, very thoroughly taken.

And this still looks at it from the point of view of the needs of the male person: one male person regardless of identity, degree of transition and lovely personality still excludes some females from the female only space. Those females should not lose access to anything so that male people can have more choice of space. The massive majority of those females will have protected characteristics equally important to the the one of the male. The first job of female only spaces is to be inclusive of all females .

No. No male person should be using female spaces.

The obvious answer is third spaces, and making male spaces more inclusive.

sex is a genotype, gender is an identity. "single sex spaces", clues in the name.

Just wanted to re-up a classic and (I hope) prescient Barracker post about how we ended up asserting absolute boundaries because of the trespass and encroachment.

The landscape is changing. I can't say how long it will take, but people are starting to assert absolute boundaries and reject the legal and ethical principle that a person can change from male to female and vice versa.

This will not reverse. It will grow, and it will reach an inevitable conclusion. The UK is looking very likely to be the fulcrum of change, and then the balance will shift back everywhere.

You can't stop this. All you can do is look to the future. It would be in your best interests to view this short period of history where we as a society mistakenly allowed a lie to temporarily be forced upon others, as a short-lived and unsustainable 'faux-solution' to a problem. That faux solution will be replaced with something else based upon a real and ethical foundation, and society will no longer accept 'sex changes' in any way.

Your best bet is to align yourself with what is coming. That so called [legal fiction] sex changes are a finite blip in history, that they obstruct a real solution to inequality, and that they should be self limiting, and should be drawn to a close.

If you support the end of this era of forced pretending, and work with those who are ushering in a new era of real women's rights, then I think it is possible that the few individuals who have already gained legal recognition as the opposite sex will continue to be honoured as their legal status. A grandfather clause is a real possibility, one that accepts those men are a product of their time, but draws a line behind them and does perpetuate the problem further.

I think this is a concession that might be negotiated from women, perhaps, if we saw that the door was finally closing on the redefinition of women and their rights.

It's just my opinion. But this is where I think we'll end up.

Whether that grandfather clause will come to pass or not I cant know.

I know what I would do in your shoes. And it isn't doubling down on 'I'm prepared to negotiate women's own boundaries with them'. It's 'I get it. It needs to stop now. Where do I go from here' [Italics my addition for clarity.}

Not respectable! Respectful, as in of women and people in general. Ie a perfectly normal person.

There's also the possibility of a man who isn't trans, and has no interest in becoming so, infiltrating a women-only space for nefarious reasons, then claiming to be trans if challenged.

Lots of trans-identified males post on social media about how they love to defile women's toilets. (And how they might deal with any woman who might object.)

So, even if they can't rape you, these people still regard single-sex spaces as spaces to be defiled.

So, no male bodies in female spaces.

No men in women's single sex spaces. No exceptions. It is not up to women to trust that men who use our single sex spaces are surgically altered. The safest thing is to keep these service single sex.

If you’d asked me 5-10 years ago, I would have said it was probably ok. I mean, they’re making an effort, probably desperately want to blend in etc. Wouldn't have worried about it too much.
However, TRAs have totally changed my mind and have absolutely thrown genuine trans people under the bus. Now I see that if you start making allowances, it’s just a few short steps to Danielle Muscato and men in women’s prisons. So my stance has now hardened and I vehemently support single sex spaces, services and sports.
I’m under no illusion that some old school trans people are probably sharing women’s loos with me and I do have sympathy for them.

is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing tarns people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the tarns people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

It's not just about safety, it's about women's privacy and dignity, and the realities of the female sex class. Opinions on this differ.

I'm not sure if I can detangle my anger about the over-reach bullying and plain nonsense coming from TRAs from this issue.

My stance was that I would have had no problem with fully transitioned transwomen in women's spaces. But I don't know how we get back to where we were before transgenderism exploded. As a PP said, how do we even know who has fully transitioned? They can get a GRC without going the whole hog. I do have huge empathy for trans people who actually have dysphoria. But I also have huge empathy for vulnerable women. Urrrgh I dunno!