Single sex spaces

Thanks, timeis, I totally appreciate that many gender-neutral toilets may be perfectly acceptable to the majority, ie full length walls, wash basins etc, but still not to all women. The gender-neutral options offered as addition, not replacement, seems a reasonable way forward. I felt incredibly uncomfortable waiting in the queue in gender-neutral space, as it was just me and some random bloke, and there was no other option. Don't think that's acceptable really, as I have hyper-vigilance towards men, like many many other women, due to my 'lived experience'.

No biological males allowed in female safe spaces.

No. If you let some men in you make it impossible to keep any men out.

@Notcreativeatall what say you about my rights, the schoolgirls's rights andy colleague's rights?

You seem to be a tad quiet on my conundrum.

If there are female toilets there are male toilets. Impact is non existent beyond a male being told no and that's something toddlers and dogs can handle so adult males should understand easily.

in the situation there isn’t it takes into consideration the distress it would cause a transwoman to use the men’s,

But fails to take into consideration the distress it would cause potentially several females in that space to have to leave and go without any access to anything so that the TW doesn't have to feel distressed.

Sexist as fuck.

Females are told by the trans lobby that if they choose to self exclude from the women's provision because males are choosing to use it due to their gender identity that's their problem. I'm afraid I therefore fail to see why male people self excluding from the male provision deserve greater sympathy and consideration than the lobby shows to females. Either everyone's distress matters equally or no one's does.

Or are we really in the position of trying to work out how many females in distress outweigh one distressed male?

A man is a man no matter what he thinks he is or does to himself. Males should not be in female spaces.

Respectable sounds like the vicar’s son in the 18th century

Not👏one👏more👏assault👏on👏a👏woman👏or👏girl

That. Absolutely that.

The political lobby have made it very clear there cannot be a rule for one and not for another based on surgery: as they ask, often, who is going to do genital checks on the door of every female space?

And the answer will be from many male people, the same one as male people have often told women here: I don't care about your boundaries, if I want to use that space I will.

The only answer is to return to legally gatekept spaces in law, and provide extra provision for trans people. They cannot have (and by doing so remove and destroy) female spaces.

Not👏one👏more👏assault👏on👏a👏woman👏or👏girl

I don't want to set arbitrary rules to allow or deny transwomen into single sex spaces for women. I especially don't want the bar to be surgery.
The default is and should be segregation by sex where appropriate with unisex facilities if it's not an issue, or as well as - such as toilets and changing rooms.
Whilst I might on a personal level feel ok with a trans friend in my spaces, I don't speak for everyone. They're not my rights to give away.

I agree with this. Wherever you draw the line, there will be people very close to it who will argue it should be bent for them. TRAs are even doing this with actual biological sex, ffs - claiming that various chromosome disorders means that man or woman isn't "fully" male or female.

Stick to your sex. Join the campaign against male violence if that's the issue for you.

I don't even care if it's a fetish or not anymore, I've run out of fucks to give. The law has been clarified. No men in women's spaces if women object. I object to men in every single space I feel vulnerable, loos included, and intend to communicate it clearly and persistently, in writing, to every service provider allowing this, cc'ing my MP and Kemi Badenoch. I'm sure some helpful legal feminist organisation will have templates soon enough, separate for private providers and public services like NHS!

I don't want to set arbitrary rules to allow or deny transwomen into single sex spaces for women. I especially don't want the bar to be surgery.
The default is and should be segregation by sex where appropriate with unisex facilities if it's not an issue, or as well as - such as toilets and changing rooms.
Whilst I might on a personal level feel ok with a trans friend in my spaces, I don't speak for everyone. They're not my rights to give away.

i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

If "Annie" cared for the safety of women and girls he'd use the men's facilities - he doesn't sound like someone I'd be friends with.

I worked with an Annie.

He was about a foot taller than every other woman in that workplace. And taller than most of the other men. He had a physical job and was head of a department.

He had not had any surgery and was quite open about how his consultations and progress was going.

He came into work one day when he had a days leave, to look at a report. He had gingham rara skirt, hair in plaits with gingham ties, white stockings and a frilly neckline. He still had his penis. We were an open site with school tours almost every day.

How do you square this off?

Should he be using the site toilets which school girls also used? What about when dressed as Little Bo Peep on a day off? Where do you even start trying to unpick the suitability of a staff member turning up on a day off dressed like this? Is it a kink, is it a fetish or did he genuinely think he was Little Bo Peep? Or should he be allowed to wear what he wants?

Personally i had to sit there with him as he looked through the report. I felt so uncomfortable that words could not explain. Why should i be made to feel this at work?

Whose rights trump whose?

Me as a staff member, the school girls, or him?

I can guarantee no woman i have ever worked with, has ever dressed up as nursery rhyme character and come into work. So why should he be allowed to just because he wants to?

Absolutely no biological males in the changing rooms, for the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

It's a hill I'm willing to die on.

A castrated man is still physically stronger than a woman.

i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

There is a hell of a lot of 'not my Nigel' going on in this debate as a whole.

It doesn't matter how lovely your friend is OP. They do not have the right to compel other females to participate in the fiction that they are female, nor to exclude females from having any facility in order to take their preferred choice of facilities. The whole problem has been, there is no way to say yes to Annie, and no to Karen White. There isn't. It's been tried, the GRA is a compromise.

What is needed is third mixed sex spaces. Annie can use those, not have to use male sex based provision if they would prefer not to, and I'm sure you and other members of the group would use them too. Plenty of women will. The thing is, Annie is not more important than the females who need single sex to mean single sex.

And the wobbly boundaries have led to the horrors of women being raped. Individual emotive cases can't be a part of this any more .

Because of new EHRC guidance, I intend to challenge any infringement of female space from now on. So you need to prepare yourself for that situation - Annie will feel betrayed if you don't stand up for her 'rights', you'll lose her as a friend anyway. Would it not be better for the group to start thinking how to explain to Annie that her understanding of the law was incorrect, and she has no right to use female spaces. That would be true friendship in my opinion, but as someone v clever wrote 'it's much harder to stand up to your friends than your enemies' (sorry for bastardized quite).