Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Single sex spaces

233 replies

Notcreativeatall · 07/04/2022 09:42

Genuine question here
is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?

OP posts:
trishaplateypus · 07/04/2022 19:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Toseland · 07/04/2022 19:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Fairislefandango · 07/04/2022 18:27

I still feel sorry for people with dysphoria.

So do I... in exactly the same way that I feel sorry for anorexics who think they're fat. The answer is not to agree with them that they're fat and give them liposuction or enrol them in weight loss clubs.

Whatwouldscullydo · 07/04/2022 18:23

I still feel sorry for people with dysphoria

Thing is family and friends don't care about this or theyd not indulged it.. Men kick the males out the man Box and spaces together.

They adults suffering from it have also had their whole lives to learn to cope with it in a way that reflects reality and they haven't.

Yet despite the fact we are carrying the women who de transition . We are carrying the children being indoctrinated. We are trying to fight for ourselves on top. I think it's ok to say no we won't absorb or make dysphoric males our problem.too, as the solution is to our own detriment. Our own safety amd is consistently used to emotionally blackmail us into doing so.

LK1972 · 07/04/2022 17:33

Hmm, I can see why it would be incredibly hard for OP to raise with her friend, by herself. Only possible in a group, and if all other females agree. And it would feel like taking something away from Annie, but actually Annie never had that right. Really sad state, and hopefully there will be gender-neutral option for Annie, and if there isn't I will support Annie's right to campaign for one. But until then, Annie's needs don't overwrite mine, and Annie should use male spaces.

Dimenw · 07/04/2022 17:27

@trishaplateypus

I feel that I now want to go right back to separate spaces, which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

Boohoo, they should have got their house in order in the first place and not left it to women to sort out.

My heart bleeds.

Read the rest of my post. I don't want men in women's spaces. I still feel sorry for people with gender dysphoria. Once upon a time I would turn a blind eye, many of us did. Now I wouldn't. And to answer another pp, of course women's safety should take precedence. I'm beyond incandescent at what is happening. I still feel sorry for people with dysphoria. The one doesn't cancel out the other, I can still feel rage, anger and sorrow at the way women are being sacrificed at the altar of men's special feelings.
trishaplateypus · 07/04/2022 17:08

I would say the difference there is that it's someone you know and trust but that's not the case for everyone else. So although you could/would never ask Annie to use the male toilets I suppose the question is... how would you react if a stranger did?

The OP shouldn't be waiting for a stranger to tell her friend not to use our spaces, it's her moral responsibility to tell him herself NOW!

InTheResistance · 07/04/2022 17:04

@Notcreativeatall

My point was that a lot of the arguments for single sex spaces do discuss the threat that men create either from the fact that men are more likely to assault women than female or the fact that having a different body creates. I do think the whole self ID thing has changed things- not just because it attempts to include people with penises as women- massively expands the population I just feel somewhat conflicted as a friend of mine is trans and when we meet socially i could no more suggest that Annie goes to a male toilet/gets kicked out of the female than i could insist on using male pronouns- its like we as a group ascribe to the fiction that Annie is female but it would just seem petty -probably similar to timeisnotaline at work - but i have no real reason to know that Annie has had the surgery I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?
I would say the difference there is that it's someone you know and trust but that's not the case for everyone else. So although you could/would never ask Annie to use the male toilets I suppose the question is... how would you react if a stranger did? Would you say they are transphobic and she had every right to be there? (I assume that's the reaction she would be expecting) or say something along the lines of "look Annie, I don't mind you being in here because we know each other but I completely get why someone else would feel uncomfortable with it" Legislation can't take account of personal relationships so has to take the stranger's point of view IMO. Just like I don't mind my DH being in a changing room with me but don't expect every other woman to put up with it, IYSWIM?
Fairislefandango · 07/04/2022 17:04

I just feel somewhat conflicted as a friend of mine is trans and when we meet socially i could no more suggest that Annie goes to a male toilet/gets kicked out of the female than i could insist on using male pronouns- its like we as a group ascribe to the fiction that Annie is female but it would just seem petty -probably similar totimeisnotalineat work - but i have no real reason to know that Annie has had the surgery
I am just conflicted- i would challenge any guy who entered a female toilet - but not Annie - wwyd?

Well that's why laws about whole groups shouldn't be based on anecdotal evidence or on individual people's personal feelings about their friends!

MarshmallowSwede · 07/04/2022 17:00

No. No one born male. No one with xy. Someone with full surgery is still biologically a male. So no.. no exceptions period.

Give them an inch and they will take a mile. So absolutely no exceptions. Biological women only! Xx only. Female only means female only.

Whatwouldscullydo · 07/04/2022 16:48

Could an organisation that's been given the wrong advice by Stonewall sue them? It's so wild that they have been able to get away with literally peddling lies for years

There will be a get out clause in the paperwork. Implement at your own risk kinda thing. They will be completely on their own dealing with the financial fall out and the customer / staff complaints and law suits.

Amd remember . Schools constantly request money for supplies. Ask for donations of clothes , tissues, loo.roll, ours had an amazon wishlist fir class Xmas contributions should parents desire it. That's how strapped fir cash schools are. I paid for all their scissors etc

Yet there is always money to pay stonewall and build mix sex toilets and despite the kids with a dedicated TA having to share them due to staffing issues/funding, you will.also find staff appear out of no where to supervise these toilets too.

LK1972 · 07/04/2022 16:42

Gibbons, totally agree, it's as simple as 'mixed sex spaces exclude many women and are less safe', provably. So if these are the only option then some female service users are discriminated against (unless single loo in small venue/other reasonable exemptions). And all men , even nice ones , the ones we know and trust, should be out of female spaces-even though OP is trying to distinguish here, she also mentions that she doesn't know if her friend does or does not still have a penis. And why should she? Annie just should not be in female loo, then no one will give a flying fig for her genitalia .

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/04/2022 16:40

@Artichokeleaves

which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

The excluded women and the women raped in pursuit of this experiment in improving male best lives probably also feel their experience is a real shame.

Yes. It's a shock to read so many posts by women for whom ingrained socialisation is so overpowering and innate that they can not see how entitled it is for men and for transwomen to set out the preconditions of women's dignity and privacy. It's a stark realisation that women's rights are regarded by them as a social fiction, something that was gifted and can be removed whenever it's convenient and at the whim of the of those who conferred that indulgence (or their representatives).
Absurdle · 07/04/2022 16:38

Could an organisation that's been given the wrong advice by Stonewall sue them? It's so wild that they have been able to get away with literally peddling lies for years.

GibbonsGoatsGibbons · 07/04/2022 16:30

No. Men need to move over & make space for their more feminine brethren.

If you let any males in then it's a mixed sex space regardless of if that male is gay, effeminate, has lost his genitals in an accident or due to surgery etc etc mixed sex spaces exclude many women & are less safe.

Artichokeleaves · 07/04/2022 16:27

which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

The excluded women and the women raped in pursuit of this experiment in improving male best lives probably also feel their experience is a real shame.

LK1972 · 07/04/2022 16:26

Timesis, I read this thread https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510971866944577542.html, and in s.15/16 it appears to suggest that the female-only toilets would also likely be able to clear the legitimacy and proportionality test in excluding males, if 1) male does not possess GRC, and/or 2) there are gender-neutral options available and 'routinely used'. This is currently in guidance form, and will need test cases to confirm. I am not trying to mislead or encourage anyone to test these guidelines, I'm working up a courage to be a test case if necessary Wink

trishaplateypus · 07/04/2022 16:24

I feel that I now want to go right back to separate spaces, which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame.

Boohoo, they should have got their house in order in the first place and not left it to women to sort out.

My heart bleeds.

trishaplateypus · 07/04/2022 16:22

What do you mean by “Fully transitioned” and “ No longer a threat? “. What proof would be required ?

Once a man, always a man and a danger to women and girls. They should NOT be allowed in our safe spaces and now the public is coming round this is what we should push for.

Dimenw · 07/04/2022 16:22

@ScreamingMeMe

I'm not sure if I can detangle my anger about the over-reach bullying and plain nonsense coming from TRAs from this issue.

My stance was that I would have had no problem with fully transitioned transwomen in women's spaces. But I don't know how we get back to where we were before transgenderism exploded. As a PP said, how do we even know who has fully transitioned? They can get a GRC without going the whole hog. I do have huge empathy for trans people who actually have dysphoria. But I also have huge empathy for vulnerable women. Urrrgh I dunno!

This ^ I feel that I now want to go right back to separate spaces, which for those few who are genuinely dysphoric is a real shame. We let the door open a tiny crack to let those few in, and all the entitled types demanding "Let us in or else" have barged their way in behind them, and don't seem too bothered at who gets trampled in the rush.
Floisme · 07/04/2022 16:19

They could have built loads of additional third spaces in the time we've been talking about it on FWR. Stonewall could have flexed its considerable fundraising muscle power and I'm sure lots of us on here would have contributed. I guess I had better keep my thoughts on why there's no sign of it happening to myself.

ScribblingPixie · 07/04/2022 16:09

@LK1972

Thanks, timeis, I totally appreciate that many gender-neutral toilets may be perfectly acceptable to the majority, ie full length walls, wash basins etc, but still not to all women. The gender-neutral options offered as addition, not replacement, seems a reasonable way forward. I felt incredibly uncomfortable waiting in the queue in gender-neutral space, as it was just me and some random bloke, and there was no other option. Don't think that's acceptable really, as I have hyper-vigilance towards men, like many many other women, due to my 'lived experience'.
I walked into a gender neutral toilet and there were just three men in there in a small space. I felt a real sense of panic and just spun around and walked out as quickly as I could. Not ok at all.
ScribblingPixie · 07/04/2022 16:07

No. After all this shit, it needs to be a clear, hard no. Third spaces are required.

M0RVEN · 07/04/2022 16:06

@Notcreativeatall

Genuine question here is the support for single sex spaces - and not allowing trans people in on their chosen sex rather than their biological sex - different if the trans people were narrowly defined- ie would people think it acceptable to allow someone who has had all the surgery etc access to a female only space? A lot of the arguments is against having male-bodied people in however they self identify- but if someone has fully transitioned are they arguably no longer a threat?
What do you mean by “Fully transitioned” and “ No longer a threat? “. What proof would be required ?

What kinds of threats do biological males represent to women and children and how would whatever you mean as “ Fully transitioned “ remove that threat ?

What Research evidence is there that males who have “ Fully transitioned” are less dangerous that other men ?

How would such a male prove his status to all the women and children around him who may be afraid?

What about the women who object to men in woman’s safe spaces for other reasons than fear eg religious or cultural reasons, privacy and dignity ?

timeisnotaline · 07/04/2022 15:59

I agree they aren’t acceptable to all women, and it would be great if all new buildings with toilet blocks were required to have a 3rd block - it would simplify things enormously. I really was just communicating what I’m pretty sure the Act lays out. There’s no benefit to misinterpreting it in women’s favour, just as some lobby groups have long been seriously misinterpreting/misstating / lying about what it says that’s supportive of opening all women’s spaces to both sexes.
I