Single sex spaces

Really?

The thing is, female people have been put in impossible situations through this self identification into single sex spaces and no one has cared. No one's minded that they've been excluded, can't use rape crisis, can't go into refuges, can't use loos or go swimming, some have been sexually assaulted and even raped. No one's minded in the least about that, those females have been told things like 're frame your trauma' as some of the mildest bits of insensitivity.

This is ridiculously overdramatic. Female people having their needs met too and not being excluded does not harm TQ+ people.

If the only way it is possible for you to feel safe and happy is for females to be harmed and excluded, do you seriously expect them to just pay this price for you? This is about answers that work for all and not just you.

Haha, I think we've seen Butterfly off again 🤣

And all women have had to become the world's mothers to fix an issue that males caused themselves by telling other males to use women's spaces whenever they wanted to.

By the way Butterfly

I have asked one poster this a few times now and they just seem to ignore it.

When a mixed sex toilet provision is made, and a clearly signed ‘female single sex' toilet is available for the females, will a transitioned male disrespect the needs of those females by entering into that toilet?

And if they do respect it and stay out of the female toilet, what would we be policing if all toilets are configured in such a way, ie. That signage states female only clearly. Surely no ‘policing’ is needed because no males would enter unless they had ill intent

And to be clear. This means ANY transitioned male at any stage of their transition and regardless of how well they believe they pass.

[quote Dimenw]@Runningupthecurtains you are right of course. Third spaces should have been the focus. Not women's spaces.[/quote]
Surely tackling male violence would have been the priority, so that males whatever they wear, feel or identify can safely and confidently access male spaces.

But instead of tackling what is a male issue men made it a feminist issue.

Well, quite Prelate

I am quite looking forward to all the campaigning that this poster has done over the past few months to get safe spaces for all trans people that doesn't impact in any way on female single sex spaces. That also does include 'pulling the ladder up' which I believe that pp was also discussing.

It will be great to hear about it.

Hang on - men have made it unsafe for this person to use male toilets, and they're angry at us?

I'm not accepting that, sorry. Fight against the male violence and entitlement that make everyone's lives worse.

I don't understand how we got here. All I've ever wanted was to exist; to be safe, to be normal. I've never hurt anyone.

We have been through this quite in depth in other threads last year with you Butterfly. May I suggest that Advanced search is handy.

We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives, and with a single - not even legally binding - document, the government has just thrown us to the wolves entirely.

And again, as was discussed in great depth with you last year. No women have ever recalled being asked if it was ever ok for males to be allowed access into their spaces.

Can I ask, since last year and the discussions you were involved in, have you started to campaign for alternative spaces? Or are you going to use emotional manipulation again to try to convince women to allow you to continue to access female only single sex spaces?

It's zero tolerance from here on in I'm afraid and you're just going to have to get used to it.

[quote sashh]@ButterflyHatched Why can't you use the gender neutral accessible toilet?

Also why are you angry at women and not the TRAs who amuse themselves by standing in the ladies with a sword or taking selfies in their underwear, or declaring on twitter how turned on they are?[/quote]
This poster has had this discussion with us before on other threads.

I've never told anyone and even my birth certificate now reads correctly

No. Your birth certificate has been changed to suit what you want it to reflect.

It does not reflect the facts. You are male and will always be male.

It is due to the massive overreach by the lobby groups that has now caused this situation. I'm sure genuinely passing transsexuals were happily going about their business before all of this. Now we have a situation where women have been backed into a corner and have been forced to fight back to defend their rights.

We have a ridiculous situation at work where "Dave" (not their real name) who has worked at the company for the past 5+ years as Dave, came into the office after lockdown with long hair and nail polish on.
We were informed by management Dave is Now Davina, despite Davina being 6ft tall and obviously male. Davina now uses the ladies toilets despite having used the mens toilets without issue for the last 5 years. No women were consulted or asked if they were OK with this. The Women are walking to another floor to use a different toilet. My (male) line manager confided in me that of course he knows its wrong as Davina is 'a bloke' but 'what can I do.'

This isn't fair on anyone.

Butterfly, you say 'We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives'. Who filled your world with fear and trauma? If you're a child transitioner and are living stealth who's traumatising you? The EHRC guidance is for service providers, not employers. You're protected by your characteristic of gender reassignment at work, no one is planning to out you! I, however, will be able to ask for a bearded 'woman' in my female hospital ward to maybe, possibly, please, to be moved to a private room, so I can go to sleep? Will this newly confirmed right to ask for this add to your fear, or perhaps remove some of my PTSD-induced panic without any impact on you?

No. Because clearly genital inspections are undignified and impractical so how can anyone know whether one particular male has had genital reassignment surgery or not?

I accept that transwomen who actually pass (and who may not have had genital surgery) will use some single sex spaces no matter whether there is legislation or not. That must feel unfair to the vast majority who don't. But that's not women's problem to solve.

Not our problem, we're just interested in protecting women and girls.

@Runningupthecurtains you are right of course. Third spaces should have been the focus. Not women's spaces.

@ButterflyHatched I'm so sorry. You are the person I was thinking of who is going to be trampled as a result of what is happening. I know someone who because of their appearance faces homophobic/transphobic male violence, just going about their life, doing their job, minding their own business. It's grim. But because the imperfect practical workaround this country arrived at is not good enough for the extreme tra's, women are facing unacceptable violence, harassment and bullying in the many ways outlined on this thread. They are at risk in hospitals and women's prisons. Turned away from refuges and rape crisis centres. Losing their jobs for speaking scientific truth. I can no longer afford to be kind and inclusive, and it saddens me to say that. But it's where we are.
I also feel you are the kind of person who would stay out of the ladies if you knew you were causing distress. Trouble is, there are too many who wouldn't.

@ButterflyHatched if the time, effort and money that has been put into getting access for any man who says he is a woman to access female spaces had instead been channelled into creating third space you wouldn't have a problem. Those spaces won't "out" you as they wouldn't be trans spaces just mixed spaces for anyone that is happy to use them. I would find them helpful when out with pre teen DS who is too old to come into the ladies.

@ButterflyHatched Why can't you use the gender neutral accessible toilet?

Also why are you angry at women and not the TRAs who amuse themselves by standing in the ladies with a sword or taking selfies in their underwear, or declaring on twitter how turned on they are?

You are angry at the wrong people butterfly

You got away with it and probably would have continued to do so of stonewall didn't advocate that someone who only identified as a woman 2 days a week also should be granted access anywhere and everywhere.

Take it up with them

Women are allowed to say no to males. Get over it.

Gosh, this thread is terrifying. Everything that I've been fearing for decades seems to actually be happening. I thought it wouldn't happen here in the UK. I thought this was something that only happened in Russia, Eastern Europe or the bible belt states in the US.

I'm now terrified of leaving the house and going anywhere that involves visiting public services. I'm dreading journeys of more than a couple of hours. I'm scared of booking massages and beauty treatments.

Nobody knows I'm trans at work - nobody could know, as I don't look or sound any different to any other woman, I've never told anyone and even my birth certificate now reads correctly - but I'm now similarly terrified that they're going to follow this guidance and put me in an impossible situation. I can't use the men's - I've not been able to do that for decades, it's not safe to do so, and outing myself would ruin the life I've so carefully assembled. I've heard the horrible jokes people tell when they think we aren't around to hear them. I can't face going back to living that every day - not after escaping it once.

I don't understand how we got here. All I've ever wanted was to exist; to be safe, to be normal. I've never hurt anyone.

We child transitioners have been maligned and misunderstood pariahs all our lives, living invisible fear-filled trauma-wracked lives, and with a single - not even legally binding - document, the government has just thrown us to the wolves entirely.

Men who have had as much surgery as possible still have male pattern offending.

Exactly, they'll find a way - it's in their blood.

Men who have had as much surgery as possible still have male pattern offending.

In addition for many women their faith stops them sharing spaces with males so you render the toilet unavailable.

Many other women are uncomfortable in a space that should be safe space

I think the question should be why does a trans woman want to use women's spaces? What happens to them if they don't?

I could say the same about the theoretical women who would be hurt by Annie going in the women's toilets- why should i be a hostage to their feelings

Because the space is for them, and you, and not your male friends.