Single sex spaces

We are down to the real nitty gritty which is not the obvious need for TQ+ people to have accessible spaces (which would be the mixed sex ones) but the need for male people to be able to maintain without interruption the illusion of being female.

Well put - exactly this.

We are down to the real nitty gritty which is not the obvious need for TQ+ people to have accessible spaces (which would be the mixed sex ones) but the need for male people to be able to maintain without interruption the illusion of being female. And to exclude female people from resources and services and spaces even when they are in urgent need is just and appropriate in achieving this for those male people. And this policy has and is right now this minute, meaning women are in prisons and hospital wards in distress and suffering assault and rape in the name of those males living their best lives.

This is just fantastically sexist.

And it illustrates why females have been forced to set hard lines. There is nothing wrong with being a TW, be proud, I absolutely support you as a TW. TW and female is not the same thing, they are two different groups with two different needs. Females are not a sub kind of lower class human and they are entitled to have access and equality.

If that interrupts some of the illusion of being female then I'm afraid so be it, there is no way around that part. Those females pay taxes and have needs and lives and rights too. The limits of freedom of gender identity end at someone else's sex based rights.

It also shows how its all about validation. Be trans. But just understand it only matters to you. Your identity does not matter to anyone else. The level.of paranoia thay you stop existing unless you are validated by women needs help to over come.

No one cares.

the best way to go about eliminating us from public life

It's DARVO, seeing as the presence of males like Butterfly ensure some women have limited access to public life. Not limited to but including, rape victims,DV victims and religious women.

discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life

Fuck me. Thought my teenager was good at hyperbole and Drama…

I know it’s been said a lot, but third spaces would work for blokes like OJ who would happily share with trans people, women like Lisa Nandy, who see souls, women who don’t mind one way or the other, dads with kids, mums with older sons who may not feel safe on their own yet, transwomen, transmen who don’t feel safe in male spaces but don’t want to use women’s...

And I’d love to know why this is not acceptable- because if it’s just about validating someone’s gender identity then I’m sorry- that is NOT the purpose of women or men only facilities. They are to provide the safety and dignity that people (especially women) need. A third space would provide that for trans people so what is the issue?

Grayson Perry, Fionne Orlander, Miranda Yardley and others use male spaces.

BH —there's a very decent chance that FWR would support you if you were to broaden the bandwidth of what it means to be a man and assert your right to be in male spaces.

"If men are at risk of other men in a toilet, surely they can just call the police, like we are told if we are at risk of a man in a female toilet."

I thought the advice was to "tut" loudly and move away. Or avert our eyes - oh, no wait, that was if a man was exposing his penis in a spa.

It is hard to keep up tbh.

Oh and Butterfly lay off on the trying to imply my Mum is some nasty bigot who needs to learn to set aside her trauma, she is a kind, generous lady who spent half the night at my cousin's wedding chatting and dancing with a Transwoman friend of the groom. She would happily sit next to you on the train and over share with you. She campaigned for gay rights back in 60's and had flat mates from a huge range of diverse backgrounds. She has supported friends and family through also sorts situations without ever uttering a word of judgement. She would be horrified to think her need for a single sex space made you feel threatened (but for the umpteenth time third spaces). So why does this kind, funny, gentle woman need to give up her freedom so you can keep yours?

Is forcing me to humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously out myself to every single person in a public space every time I need to go for a piss, at great cost to my own mental health and wellbeing, a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

If men are at risk of other men in a toilet, surely they can just call the police, like we are told if we are at risk of a man in a female toilet.

That's proportionate innit?

Is forcing me to humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously out myself to every single person in a public space every time I need to go for a piss, at great cost to my own mental health and wellbeing, a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

did anyone pick up on this? what unmitigated tripe.

life threatening

ffs

This is what it always comes down to, and why women have had to mobilise again. Because it was never about trans rights or acceptance. It’s about men accessing women’s private spaces and not taking no for an answer.
All reasonable people see that third spaces are the easy answer. All unreasonable people keep agitating to be let into women’s spaces where they do not belong.
The men who want to be in women’s spaces are the very reason we need women’s spaces.

Oh butterfly. I engaged with you in good faith and got a few angry responses from other pps for my pains. But now I see why they were so angry because despite the numerous mentions of third spaces, you seem to be stuck on your being able to access women's spaces, or it will be the end of your life as you know it. Why isn't a safe third space an acceptable solution?
Why is it up to women to provide the solution? Women aren't campaigning for the eradication of trans. Just for the preservation of safe spaces for women.

Women here (and elsewhere) have been saying third spaces for years now

Its been obvious all along what the real agenda is.

Self ID was bill because the very men that would be allegedly attacking them in the mens could just follow them into the ladies. So how would it help?

Mixed sex spaces are only ok if they replace the single sex spaces.

Along side single sex spaces and there's a problem.

We all see it.

Women here (and elsewhere) have been saying third spaces for years now.

Posters like Butterfly keep saying no.

Women offer compromise, posters like Butterfly say no.

Is it any wonder women now say we’ve lost the will to try and help?

Just exist in mine, which I have done all my adult life and most of my teenage years too.

We have been through this on other threads with you. They were never ‘your’ spaces.

You haven’t told us whether you have been campaigning for third spaces (that everyone can use since we are constantly told by some women they have no issue with mixed sex spaces) in the months since you have been on this board.

Have you been campaigning for those spaces?

it's pretty depressing to discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life

The degree of self absorption in that statement says it all. Emotionally manipulative aside. It is yet another cognitive distortion - polarization.

The ‘all or nothing’ tactic.

so I think we done for now unless there are any more questions?

Some great work done here on this thread. A great live demonstration of extreme trans activist tactics. Thank you.

I think I've already said more than a lifetime's worth on the subject of nipping to the loo at a service station, and it's pretty depressing to discuss the best way to go about eliminating us from public life, so I think we done for now unless there are any more questions?

@ButterflyHatched

I don't think we are done because you still haven't answered why your distress is more important than my mum's. Please tell me why third spaces are not the answer.
Please answer my question as to why you are more important than women.

I have no idea how best to help you deal with the reality that there are almost 35 million women living in the UK and they deserve safety, dignity and a voice.

I've seen plenty of cis people be 'accused' of being trans over the years, however, so even then false positives must be so hard for your mother to deal with.

This is a ‘maximizing’ technique here.

Now the issue is yes, the availability of testosterone being used in micro amounts by some females to cosmetically enhance their look, will cause future issues.

Those very few females that are mistaken for males without the micro dosing of testosterone has been rather conveniently exaggerated.

And all any of those females have to do is firstly acknowledge that they have tried to appear masculine and have succeeded to themselves. And to the patient, talk to the patient requesting a female health care provider about the patient’s options.

Women being mistaken for being male is an age old occurrence. Most women I know, and as my experience as a girl, deal with it and don’t take offense. Usually hearing a female voice combine with other sub conscious cues such as gait, hands etc will quickly dispel any concern.

is male socialisation the problem

Well yes, I imagine it's your male socialisation that means you think it's ok to treat women as lesser beings. To discount their feelings, to invade their privacy, to compromise their dignity, to lie and gaslight them.

Live demonstration right here that you can't surgically remove male entitlement. If anything your entitlement is much greater than other males because in general they understand the need to give women their own spaces.

Are penises the problem, yes. But even without a penis, a male is still a male and has physical advantages over females unless puberty blockers taken from prior to puberty.

are Y chromosomes the problem,
Partly, if that Y chromosome means body has experienced any virulisation.

is male socialisation the problem, Yes! And it starts from birth and it also comes from just knowing you are male.

or is there some fundamental essence of maleness that inherently taints all it touches with a single drop?

Oh. A minimising tactic. How unusual?

The only group of people I know who discusses ‘essences’ and ‘a feeling of ‘man or woman’, is not the group of feminists.

So, this is projection isn’t it?

Hard no. No men in women's spaces, ever. We tried being "kind"*. We thought it was just a handful of harmless gay guys who hate, and alter their bodies. It's not. Self-id (and we do basically have it, thanks to stonewall encouraging orgs to "get ahead of the law") means any man, the worst man you've ever met, all men are allowed in women's spaces. No thank you.

*not that anyone asked us first

I have no idea how best to help her deal with the reality that there are somewhere between 13,000 and 200,000 trans people living in the UK. It might be the case that there is just no way to balance her needs with the reality of the situation without compromise.

And here we see the truth.

butterfly is telling running’s mother that that mother has to effectively ‘suck it up’.

Because transitioned males prioritise themselves every time. Putting this together with the answer to my question that even with a mixed sex provision available, some transitioned males will not respect the needs of females for single sex spaces.

I would hate to be putting words into your mouth here butterfly. Is this truly what you believe? That you should still use any female single sex space regardless of having a mixed sex provision as well, and running’s mothers needs don’t take priority. Knowing it would cause her distress, you would still use that female space?