Single sex spaces

But how would it ever be policed?

Someone wanting my tv and any spare cash has a passionate want to be in my house. They have no care for my feelings or rights or who's property it is, or what their theft may do to me.

The law and the police and society however do their best to make this seen as a lousy thing to do to others, to make it difficult to do, and for their to be consequences for those who would do it anyway.

Without those things, anyone who felt like it would steal what they wanted when they wanted, because why not?

And in situations such as the current Brighton Rape Crisis one, where there is an LGBT+ group, a men's group AND a mixed sex women's group, the flat refusal to tolerate just the existence of a female only group even in another building in another part of the town because it means something existing that is a bit of womanhood that male people can't have? And it's better for those raped women to go unhelped than male people face up to this?

Get a bloody grip. I have no sympathy left for appallingly selfish and sexist behaviour like this. Other people have needs too, and males are not the gatekeepers of whether or not they gift female people permission to have help when they're raped, or on hospital wards, or some bastard ex tried to strangle them last night, or they're fourteen and not going to school today because they have a period and can't change san pro there.

The answer is going to have to involve insisting that where female people require female only services or spaces that this is respected by male people as part of those female people's equality, access and inclusion.

The same way other boundaries have to be enforced by law when there would be no voluntary respecting of other people's needs and rights by someone who wants something.

Just sitting back and letting female people go on being excluded and harmed so that male people don't have to face things such as female people being people too, with equality of rights, is not an option. The word 'compromise' was used. Females have already compromised to breaking point. This is where male people must start taking some of the load.

*suggests somehow that they are NOT women

I honestly don't think third spaces would solve the problem.
I think most trans women think as Butterfly does, that they are actually women, have a right to use use women's facilities and spaces, and that not doing so is either "outing" or suggests somehow that they are now women.
I think massive amounts of money would be used to create these hypothetical third spaces, and I also think in the vast majority of the time they would lie empty (or at least empty of trans women).
The whole attraction and point of using women's spaces is to include themselves in the "women" category. The validation that they are women. And that takes OTHER females in that space to do so.
Again, it's not just about the space itself, the physical room.
It's about the presence of other women there ACCEPTING their "femaleness".
We have seen that Butterfly does not want to use third spaces where they already exist. I'm not sure that spending millions building more of them is going to change the minds of trans people who firmly see themselves as their chosen sex.
But - I'm not sure what the answer IS either.

As far as I am concerned consent should be enthusiastic and obvious.
Yes and I would add that you cannot give consent when you were never asked in the first place.

I think there are some very mixed up ideas about consent in this outing stuff.

No woman challenges them. Assume it's because they pass not because of women's fear of repercussions.

No woman challenges them. Assumes everyone is happy with their invasion and takes silence as compliance.

As far as I am concerned consent should be enthusiastic and obvious.

Taking silence as consent is a bad road to go down and blames the victims.

And there are plenty of victims, even discounting the trans women who have raped or attacked women, by crossing boundaries uninvited they've harmed women and taken away their right to consent.

That is the question scully.

I personally don't think we should worry about this " outing " stuff. First up most don't pass as well as they think they do and secondly no one cares. No one is interested in looking at them yelling oooh look they are outing themselves as X using this space. If I started talking aviut how I thought everyone was looking at me or hated me I'd be told to seek help.

But we indulge unhealthy, irrelevant and extremely paranoia with this.

Why?

Not just ‘outing’ to use mixed sex toilets. But humiliatingly and potentially life-threateningly dangerously outing.

Because women have said no, we get told this so that we are now to blame.

I saw a very direct thread over the past few days on twitter. This entire mess was created because a few males who felt they could not be males so the only other option was to be ‘women’ were affirmed. And it stemmed from there. The creation of generations of people believing their identity makes them the opposite sex and entitled to access the provisions set up for the needs of females due to their sexed bodies.

Instead of believing they can present themselves however they want but need to live with their material reality otherwise.

How could using mixed sex toilets be outing?
It’s as if the very point was to somehow infiltrate women’s spaces. Surely not

@Notcreativeatall

I don’t mind someone with a different body using my safe spaces. Fat women , thin women, women with disabilities, woman of all ethnicities.

It’s not just about bodies - I don’t mind how they identity in terms of race, religion, gender, species, sexuality.

I don’t care as long as they are women.

I am perfectly happy for you to use mixed sex toilet facilities. I’m not happy for me to use them.

Why does it bother you so much that I make different choices from you? Why are so desperate to control me?

There’s two very easy solutions here

Mixed toilets and womens toilets
Mixed toilets, womens toilets and mens toilets

Easy peasy. But yet , for some reason, not good enough for the TRAs and MRAs. They hate hate HATE women now having anything for themselves.

But most of all, they hate women having the right to say no.

And this red line has been forced into being by “no debate” and accusations of bigotry. There was a time for this conversation- women were shut out of it and slurred. So that time has passed I’m afraid.

There is also an issue of drift. If a transitioned male can be considered a female for toilets, they will then say it is negative discrimination to exclude them in sport, in rape crisis centres etc.

I agree and that is partly why my red line is no males in any single sex women's services or spaces.

There is also an issue of drift. If a transitioned male can be considered a female for toilets, they will then say it is negative discrimination to exclude them in sport, in rape crisis centres etc.

We have already seen this logic being used. One person doing this is McKinnon/Ivy.

We have seen that with language too.

So….. where is the boundary now? Because it will certainly look different in a few years time. And a few years after that and so on.

If TW can be granted consideration for their perceived feelings and challenges and preference for space and who they share a toilet with,

The exact same consideration has to be extended to females.

Interesting that the issues for females who cannot share a mixed sex space, or simply don't want to, gets unpacked and criticised in those terms 'culture/nature/social' as if these are just silly choices on their part. There is however no unpacking or criticism for males at all.

If females can just shut up, cope, get over it or self exclude and do without with no one caring, then for my money TW can equally apply those recommended strategies and use the male space. Personally I think that's unnecessarily uncaring and unkind, but I will not support different standards based on a belief that people born male matter more and deserve more and that female people can be treated with much less care and consideration.

If everyone's needs and feelings matter equally then it's third spaces.

One or the other.

Male sports? Nah lets make them gender neutral. Open to anyone.

This issue could be resolved in 2 minutes.

Make men's toilets the gender neutral ones.
Make men's changing rooms the gender neutral ones.
Make men's refuges the gender neutral ones.
Make gender neutral spaces in male prisons.

Done. Dusted. Nobody is outed. Nobody is at risk. Job done.

Have googled. Am horrified.

I wasn't aware it was, so please regard that as used in innocence.

We are down to the real ni*y gri*y

Please don't use this racist term, we had enough trouble on the feminism board with the whole "Karen" saga.