Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Grace Lavery on Woman’s Hour Today (7 April)

570 replies

CaveMum · 07/04/2022 08:17

Why on earth I do not know, but the “delightful” Grace Lavery is on Woman’s Hour today.

This Grace Lavery

Grace Lavery on Woman’s Hour Today (7 April)
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
EstelleCostanza · 07/04/2022 11:48

Yes, I thought EB managed that rather well - without GL ever realising it. It was well done.

OutlookStalking · 07/04/2022 11:47

Has anyone linked EB to this thread? Be great for her to see our support as we listened 😊

Waterfordaston · 07/04/2022 11:43

I consider myself quite clever. Yes. And yet for a moment I thought “I am too stupid to understand this. I have missed something.”

But I’m not, and I haven’t.

See you, Grace. See you and your thingy.

nevercis · 07/04/2022 11:42

Shame there's so many on twitter having a go at EB. As a good friend of mine frequently says: 'never interrupt your enemies while they are making a mistake'.

YesSheCan · 07/04/2022 11:41

Sorry that was reply to @WinterTrees

YesSheCan · 07/04/2022 11:40

Yeah, that's what I thought!

Phobiaphobic · 07/04/2022 11:39

@CaveMum

Ooh a "gender studies" student called Miranda has rolled in with the "but intersex" argument!
Fresh meat for the lols.
ResisterRex · 07/04/2022 11:39

@senua

Did Grace wish Prince Charles dead when he got covid or does Grace save Grace's bile for women?
The Queen.
Artichokeleaves · 07/04/2022 11:39

Word salad -

  • I don't really know what I'm talking about
  • I am a poor communicator
  • I have no concept of accessibility
  • I am trying to fog all this in pseudo intellectual waffle

That's the generous version.

transdimensional · 07/04/2022 11:38

Her logic on the Queen, as on much else, is incomprehensible. We don't live in the eighteenth century and the Queen doesn't have much practical power. But even in the eighteenth century, if a monarch died of sickness, that didn't result in a republic.
And as a linguist I take exception to the claim that "can a woman have a penis" is grammatically odd. She was implying that it was a question about permission, but it isn't. In some cases, "can" denotes permission (though prescriptivists traditionally frowned on this, preferring "may"), but not here. If the question is odd then the oddness is semantic and results from the contradiction in asking whether it's possible for a person who by definition lacks a penis to have one.

senua · 07/04/2022 11:37

Did Grace wish Prince Charles dead when he got covid or does Grace save Grace's bile for women?

tabbycatstripy · 07/04/2022 11:35

The basic argument was that people can change their sex by fiddling with their endocrine systems and secondary sex characteristics, and that although there is a naturally occurring group of people with a particular arrangement of chromosomes, restricting the label “female” to that group is a sop to patriarchy (Lavery calls this defining femaleness by ‘traits’).

But this is very obviously to misunderstand feminist critique. Patriarchy is the coercive attachment and conditioning of behavioural traits to the organically occurring group of people we recognise as female. Changing the definition of “female” doesn’t counter this flawed assignment of behavioural traits to people perceived as being female, as Lavery recognised when discussing the change in attitudes towards Lavery in student surveys.

However, I would counter that this change in attitudes could also be explained by Lavery’s self-identification into the category “marginalised person with protected characteristic”, rather than because people truly consider Lavery female.

But whatever. It’s nonsense on stilts.

YesSheCan · 07/04/2022 11:34

@Artichokeleaves

It's been said from the start on FWR: all we ever had to do was get past no debate.

After that, all we have to do is let people like Grace make the case out loud and wait for everyone else to get the full picture.

Yes @Artichokeleaves reckon it was a good move by EB to just let GL speak
LaingsAcidTab · 07/04/2022 11:34

@Clymene

Go Emma!!

Oh fuck off Grace. We see you

This is exactly what I said in my strongly worded tirade at the radio while driving this morning. I had to remind myself not to roll my eyes too much in case I lost sight of the road in front of me.
viques · 07/04/2022 11:31

I assume GLs partner is OK with all this penis chatter, what with one thing and another.

WinterTrees · 07/04/2022 11:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

PrelateChuckles · 07/04/2022 11:30

@Manderleyagain

I wasn't going to listen because I thought it was someone like that bloke who runs pink news waffling on. Then I saw this thread and tuned back in.

So much of what GL said was wrong, and its depressing that some academics and (as a pp put it) midwit students believe it. But the main thing I want to say is that I'm a gc feminists (roughly) and I have no desire to protest grace lavery, or to prevent her speaking. I definitely don't want to bang on the windows of the room to prevent other people hearing her. Her position is the more extreme and detached from reality of the theoretical positions than underpin the trans rights movement. The more people hear it the better. I hope she goes on newsnight and question time, start the week, lbc, talk radio, and I hope she describes everything that she believes in full. And the nation's bored and baffled listeners will form their own opinions.

Yep. That's the difference.

That's all they have. Word salad and violence.

PrelateChuckles · 07/04/2022 11:29

@Mumsnut

'Word salad' is too kind a description.

Word porridge, maybe?

Word Ungodly Weetabix Concoction?
JoyousAsOtters · 07/04/2022 11:28

This may well be Grace Lavery’s Prince Andrew interview moment. Do we think Grace is sitting at home having a manicure and thinking, ‘Oh my gosh, that went SOOOO well’.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/04/2022 11:26

My only thought when Grace said Grace thought the media were exaggerating the amount of GC people as they hadn't received any hassle was that it's only one side that issues rape threats, death threats, intimidation, protests to shut down women's meetings etc. And that's the trans extremists. Not sure where wishing for the death of a 95 year old woman with covid fits in with that of course Confused

senua · 07/04/2022 11:25

Is the strategy to talk so fast that nobody can hear what Grace is saying? You are just left with a numb "wait ... what ,,, Confused " Maybe the plan is to make us think "I will have to buy the book so I can find out what this person actually said, in amongst all that word salad". Hell will freeze over first, though.

All I got from that was that patriarchy penis patriarchy penis. Women are womenning wrong. And then "I must be controversial" so threw in regicide too.

YesSheCan · 07/04/2022 11:24

Tried to listen and follow the thread at the same time. This was a mistake as it was very hard to understand GL's argument for sex-based rights being a bad thing for women. Was all quite hard to follow and find an actual point. Is the 'word salad' approach to discussing sex and gender issues a deliberate ploy so those who aren't academics in the area assume they're not educated enough to understand and defer to the presumed expertise? Or does this person just talk a load of shite? Will have to force myself to listen again.

CompleteGinasaur · 07/04/2022 11:23

@ResisterRex

Incomprehensible. Unevidenced. Contradictory. Verbose.

And all undone by this question:

"If you don't want a world where borders are policed, why are you trying to police women?"

Quite.

'A Ballaching Wa*k of Sniggering Dreariness'.

Swashbuckled · 07/04/2022 11:20

Was in a meeting but cannot wait to listen to this one. Does anyone know when, or how, I can watch it on catchup? Clicked the link above but was a live one. Searched the website but only had episodes up to yesterday. Smile

Retrievemysanity · 07/04/2022 11:19

What on earth have I just listened to?! I’m baffled as to why this person was given air time. Just when I thought this whole thing couldn’t get any crazier…