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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No debate is over at the Guardian

141 replies

InvisibleDragon · 06/04/2022 16:49

Simultaneous release of pieces by Susanna Rustin and Zoe Williams:

Rustin:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policies-trans-women-rights-gender-recognition-act

Williams:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policy-gender-back-trans-rights-boris-johnson

OP posts:
Abra1d1 · 06/04/2022 19:12

Is it because ZW doesn’t understand that the majority of trans women still have penises? Does she think they have all had surgery or hormones?

PermanentTemporary · 06/04/2022 19:11

That link would make sense if the religious owners of a swimming pool were refusing to let transwomen use the pool because they were wearing women's swimsuits in breach of Leviticus. It doesn't really relate to making provision alongside other sessions for those whose religion precludes changing in front of unrelated males.

GreenUp · 06/04/2022 19:11

This is all very predictable from Zoe Williams.

Just after the EHRC released its guidance, she was asking Jolyon Maugham on twitter for advice on a legal challenge to the guidance. If she were an honest journalist she'd be asking a number of Equalities specialist lawyers, not a tax barrister with a longstanding interest in blocking equalities lawyers and gaslighting womens' rights campaigners.

twitter.com/zoesqwilliams/status/1511255218599702530?s=20&t=AnJCEqDjbFLovkSCRFXgQg

@zoesqwilliams
@JolyonMaugham
sorry if this is a dumb q, but do you think the new EHRC guidance on single sex spaces would survive legal challenge? 9:11 AM · Apr 5, 2022

I didn't think it would be long before we'd get her gaslighting article....

AlisonDonut · 06/04/2022 19:08

@BenCooperisaGod

Well, that is rather fantastic. I wonder what its like at HQ today. Has Talcum X blown a gasket yet? Surely he should be threatening to resign about now
He has blown a Suzanne Moore gasket today yes. Almost seems obsessed with her.
CrossPurposes · 06/04/2022 19:03

I've no idea the point that Williams was making in her final comment in this paragraph:

"As things stand now, the government has blocked reforms to the GRA and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission has provided guidelines extending the circumstances under which trans people can be excluded from single-sex spaces. “Legitimate justifications” now include female-only fitness classes and the toilets of places of worship where it may offend people, on religious grounds, to have inclusive spaces. I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class, nor in my years writing a fitness column have I ever seen “female-only” as a spec. This is a hokey, made-up scenario. Those crop up a lot. And let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit."

"Rehash" links to an article about the Christian couple who discriminated against a gay couple which has zero relationship to single sex spaces: www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/27/christian-guesthouse-owners-appeal-gay-couples

ChopinBoard · 06/04/2022 18:54

I wish they would stop talking about "excluding trans people". It's about all males and females using the single-sex services of their sex, not imposing themsleves on spaces designated for the opposite sex!

bellinisurge · 06/04/2022 18:54

About fucking time. Do they think people have the emotional energy to speak in tongues on this. Be clear where you stand or fuck off.

PeterPomegranate · 06/04/2022 18:49

I used to attend a women only gym (many years ago). Not religious. No history of trauma. I just felt less self conscious exercising in a women only space.

I also remember a Muslim colleague removing her headscarf to adjust her hair in the mirror in the ladies loo (I particularly remember because she had the most beautiful hair I’ve ever seen). Presumably she wouldn’t have felt comfortable to do that if the space wasn’t single sex.

These situations aren’t impossible to imagine are they??

MrsTerryPratchett · 06/04/2022 18:40

@LizzieSiddal

I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class...’

Anyone who can’t wrap their head around that shouldn’t be a journalist.

Quite.
transdimensional · 06/04/2022 18:38

It was argued in an UnHerd piece today that "Right-thinking Americans, until very recently, tended to believe that heated arguments over transgenderism were a peculiarly British phenomenon" and that questioning the TRA agenda was transphobic and rightwing, but "that all changed last month".

If true, perhaps it is no coincidence that the Guardian has chosen this moment to adopt a more balanced approach (and slowly come more into the line with the much better line of the Observer?)!
In the past, American contributors have exerted public pressure on the editors.

ControversialOpening · 06/04/2022 18:36

Zoe’s arguments seem to be:

It’s not a problem (for me)
It’s not a problem (for me)
It’s not a problem (for me)
It’s not a problem (for me)

… so why should any other woman complain?

transdimensional · 06/04/2022 18:33

@parietal

I agree with Rustin but I'm not sure her piece will make much sense to people who are not part of the 'in crowd' and don't already know the terminology of the debate. I think we need more 'explainer' pieces that set things out really clearly for readers who are only just hearing about this topic and need to understand what is actually being discussed.
That would be useful, but I thought Rustin devoted quite a bit of her piece to explaining the issues. At times it felt like she was more interested in explaining the background than putting forward her views. It may just be because I'm already more familiar with the issues than the average person, but I thought she did a reasonably good job of explaining them in the space available. It was very good to see the two pieces side by side, letting readers read both and decide for themselves. Hope we see more of that!
HotPenguin · 06/04/2022 18:29

I did a women only triathlon, because I was told that men swim over the top of you and push you under rather than overtake. Whereas women go round each other (and are less likely to need to overtake due to being more equally matched).

Charley50 · 06/04/2022 18:29

@ChiefInspectorParker

I used to swim regularly during women-only sessions at York Hall. I used to feel happy and proud to live in a community where Muslim women could enjoy swimming, where it was normal for people of different backgrounds to accommodate each other, and it felt like a small emblem of inclusion at what must often have been a difficult time for those women (I started going there in 2002).
True inclusion yes, rather than the current kind of 'inclusion.'
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/04/2022 18:29

This bit in the Williams piece annoys me. This is the next battleground for gender-critical feminists, who would like to see the party drop its support for reform, on the basis that any such move allows for more trans people – generally cast by some as predatory men – to access single sex spaces.

How many times does it need to be said? Look at the crime stats. Almost all sexual predators are male. The great majority of violent crime is committed by males. They don't come with a great big P for predator tattooed on the forehead, so for safeguarding purposes we exclude all males from certain spaces and services. There is no evidence at all that males who adopt a trans identity have a female pattern of offending rather than a male one, so they get treated the same as all the other males. Also, to state the blindingly obvious, criminals are dishonest! They tell lies to get an advantage. So self-ID with no checks, no gatekeeping, is wide open to abuse by predators, i.e. criminals.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 06/04/2022 18:25

[quote DomesticatedZombie]'let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit.'

What does she mean - that Muslim or Jewish women who observe sex segregation should just fuck off and get over it?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_gender_segregation[/quote]
I do believe this is Zoe Williams' Riley Dennis moment where she is, indeed, effectively recommending that women should just get over their faith/culture/trauma and realise that the needs of The Sacred Caste must always take precedence.

Oddly enough, The Sacred Caste in gender terms has an almost perfect Venn diagram overlap with The Sacred Caste in sex caste terms (see Sheila Jeffreys) and with The Sacred Caste in social, civic, and political hierarchies. It's almost as if they're the same people persisting through slightly different nomenclatures but an identical entitlement.

mudgetastic · 06/04/2022 18:18

Just read one of them _ Williams

Good grief - no it's not trans people we want to exclude from single sex spaces , its trans people whose sex isn't consistent with the single sex space

Stupid to not bother to be accurate / comes across as lazy bigoted reporting

SirVixofVixHall · 06/04/2022 18:17

@DomesticatedZombie

Gosh, Zoe Williams talks an amazing amount of drivel.

But - thank goodness for Susanna Rustin.

It might be good to see these two discuss the issues. Both are intelligent and eloquent.

Agree re ZW. Did she never go to the Hampstead Ladies’ Pond ? I used to go to a female only Gym class. Also transpeople make up 1% of all people now ? What utter tosh.
PermanentTemporary · 06/04/2022 18:06

Sorry to ask Mangy but are the Canadian gyms sex specific or gender specific?

MamaSaidTheredBeDaysLikeThis · 06/04/2022 18:04

There was a piece in the Independent not so long ago where a woman talked about being kicked or swam over by men when they swam faster than men and there were loads of responses with similar stories. So there’s probably non-religious women who prefer single-sex swimming too (not to say I don’t respect the religious reasons).

MangyInseam · 06/04/2022 17:58

Maybe Canada is far different but we have huge numbers of women only gyms here, which don't cater in particular to religious people. I would be a little surprised if that wasn't a think at all in the UK, am I wrong?

NevermindNelson · 06/04/2022 17:54

I used to swim at a women’s only gym and did the aqua aerobics most weeks, the Orthodox Jewish women would remove their wigs to wear swim caps - they absolutely wouldn’t have stayed if men had joined.

BenCooperisaGod · 06/04/2022 17:51

Well, that is rather fantastic. I wonder what its like at HQ today. Has Talcum X blown a gasket yet? Surely he should be threatening to resign about now

LizzieSiddal · 06/04/2022 17:50

I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class...’

Anyone who can’t wrap their head around that shouldn’t be a journalist.

parietal · 06/04/2022 17:47

I agree with Rustin but I'm not sure her piece will make much sense to people who are not part of the 'in crowd' and don't already know the terminology of the debate. I think we need more 'explainer' pieces that set things out really clearly for readers who are only just hearing about this topic and need to understand what is actually being discussed.

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