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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Guardian: Head of Team GB Olympic cycling calls for transgender rule change.

38 replies

ControversialOpening · 06/04/2022 16:10

www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/apr/06/head-of-team-gb-olympic-cycling-transgender-rule-change-uci

About time

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Knittingchamp · 07/04/2022 09:13

@Justanotherobserver

Trans women are allowed to race in the female category if they reduce their testosterone levels to below 5 nmol/L for at least 12 months

What gets me is that such statements are almost never followed by saying that 5 nmol/L is up to ten times the amount of testosterone that women have.

Exactly, and in sport, what you did 2 years ago in terms of testosterone intake, etc will massively affect current form. It's a complete joke.
Rainbowshit · 06/04/2022 22:35

What I would like is not only for no males to be allowed to compete in female sport but for no males to be overseeing female sport. This is why this has come about. Males who quite often have never competed themselves making decisions about female sport. Should not be allowed.

jenny5000 · 06/04/2022 22:31

Thank you @Tiphaine

Helleofabore · 06/04/2022 22:04

Sean Ingle honest reporting yet again.

He is consistent and persistent!

JustWaking · 06/04/2022 21:14

We believe that the rule is asymmetric and thus discriminatory in that it advantages only biological male athletes by providing them greater opportunity to compete and enjoy the rewards of sport at its highest level

This is great. Our argument is so often misrepresented as being anti-trans, despite us repeating again and again that it's about fairness to women.

But by emphasising the asymmetry and using the language of the Equality Act, it points out that this is also unfair to transmen. It's about sex - females losing out - not about Trans-ness. And it highlights TRAs complete lack of thought or regard for female trans people.

Tiphaine · 06/04/2022 20:30

Copy with signatories

twitter.com/unionfeminine/status/1511449494310711297?s=21

The Guardian: Head of Team GB Olympic cycling calls for transgender rule change.
The Guardian: Head of Team GB Olympic cycling calls for transgender rule change.
The Guardian: Head of Team GB Olympic cycling calls for transgender rule change.
Tiphaine · 06/04/2022 20:25

Here it is

twitter.com/ithompsonfdn/status/1511483313789100034?s=21

The Guardian: Head of Team GB Olympic cycling calls for transgender rule change.
jenny5000 · 06/04/2022 18:51

Does anyone have a link to the full letter?

inheritancetrack · 06/04/2022 18:29

@Artichokeleaves

“We believe that the rule is asymmetric and thus discriminatory in that it advantages only biological male athletes by providing them greater opportunity to compete and enjoy the rewards of sport at its highest level.”

Word.

It's amazing, it feels like the world is finally waking up.

Fucking brilliant!
AtrociousCircumstance · 06/04/2022 18:07

True @mirax - but as @InvisibleDragon said it’s towards the top rather than hidden somewhere which is in itself a positive shift.

But yeah let’s see what follows…

mirax · 06/04/2022 17:59

@AtrociousCircumstance

Fuuuuuck is the Guardian finally supporting women’s rights?

They’ve got a lot of backtracking to do, to tidy up their misogyny.

This is good news.

They are reporting the news. Just wait for their op-eds and you will see them digging in. I think that we are at the very beginning of the fight back.
Justanotherobserver · 06/04/2022 17:55

I haven't seen any comments open on that sort of thread for a very long time. It would be interesting to see what what was allowed.

Weefreetiffany · 06/04/2022 17:54

@miri1985 surely it further highlights how testosterone shouldn’t be used as a standard to allow participation in the female category?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 06/04/2022 17:52

@Weefreetiffany

I don’t understand the testosterone thing. If a woman gets pregnant with a boy there will be a month of her pregnancy when she has the same testosterone levels as an adult man, followed by a month where she has the same amount as a pubescent teenager. She doesn’t turn into a man for those two months. Yet by the Olympic standards she must do and could race in the mens category. Or at the least would be excluded from the women’s. Madness.
I agree that too many sporting groups are adopting crude approaches to a single biomarker wherease, as you indicate, it's considerably more nuanced than that.

The first part of this is relevant and should be open access:

*Serum androgen levels are increased in pregnancy. Testosterone levels in nonpregnant women (without polycystic ovary syndrome [PCOS]) are generally

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2022 17:46

This is a positive step.
Of course, one test will be whether they allow accurate and factual contributions from women below the line. Or whether they're zapped by the anti women brigade as soon as they're posted.

AtrociousCircumstance · 06/04/2022 17:38

Fuuuuuck is the Guardian finally supporting women’s rights?

They’ve got a lot of backtracking to do, to tidy up their misogyny.

This is good news.

LosingTheWill2022 · 06/04/2022 17:36

Nor is a man with low testosterone a woman!

LosingTheWill2022 · 06/04/2022 17:35

Halleluja
A woman is not a man with low testosterone!

donquixotedelamancha · 06/04/2022 17:32

Break out the metal polish and the softest polishing cloths and make that golden bridge shine. Let it glow and beckon those who need safe harbour from the Land of Compelled Kindness as they wake up to what they have been endorsing and the harms that they have facilitated.

This.

I actually doubt this is anyone changing their minds- it's just that enough of a crack has been opened to allow current competitors to risk weighing in.

Its still far from risk free- well done to them.

Somanysocks · 06/04/2022 17:31

Is it possible for a male to reduce their testosterone to similar to a woman and what would happen to their body if they did?

Is it safe or the fact that ten times more is the benchmark shows any lower would harm them.

miri1985 · 06/04/2022 17:24

@Weefreetiffany

I don’t understand the testosterone thing. If a woman gets pregnant with a boy there will be a month of her pregnancy when she has the same testosterone levels as an adult man, followed by a month where she has the same amount as a pubescent teenager. She doesn’t turn into a man for those two months. Yet by the Olympic standards she must do and could race in the mens category. Or at the least would be excluded from the women’s. Madness.
There are no natural testosterone limits for women with XX chromosomes, the testosterone limits are for intersex women who have a Y chromosome or trans women.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

nauticant · 06/04/2022 17:19

"asymmetric" is exactly the word and what's been said on here for years, the best example being that a teenage girl wanting to transition away from where puberty is taking her is not a mirror image of a 40 year old man with his own kids "realising he's always been a woman".

LizzieSiddal · 06/04/2022 17:19

It seems like the dam is about to burst and it can’t come soon enough.

Absurdle · 06/04/2022 17:16

Or that at least two recent and well done studies demonstrate that the twelve months reduction of testosterone has only negligible effects on the performance differences of MTF transitioners. It's all those earlier years in their lives when the testosterone worked on their bodies that matter much more, in particular going through male puberty.

It occurs to me that all the people who think that it's all about testosterone levels and that a few years of testosterone is sufficient should, for consistency, think that it's perfectly fine for men who have in the past doped with testosterone to compete in men's sport, provided they aren't doping right now.

And in fact they should be fine with male competitors who are currently doping with testosterone provided their T levels aren't any higher than ten times the male average. Then their position would be logically consistent with their position on womens' sport. The advantage of doping is considerably less than the advantage provided by male puberty after all.

And there have been very few longitidinal studies done, how can siuch flimsy evidence justify the exclusion of dopers? Given the wide range of physiological variation,dopers don't automatically have any kind of advantage. Look at Michael Phelps! etc etc.

Deliriumoftheendless · 06/04/2022 17:16

I love this forum for the obscure, nerdy sci fi references.