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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ahem.... FWR headlines in the Mail

135 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/04/2022 23:52

The Mail have picked up this thread about the wonderful Women Uniting organisation and done an article about us!!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10682139/Mumsnet-readers-rally-campaign-protect-womens-rights.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4518855-Maya-Forstater-on-front-page-of-Daily-Mail

Grin Grin

OP posts:
GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/04/2022 08:08

The DM is so hypocritical, they are bloody awful about and to women until it suits them, then they pretend to care

Yep, this
Daily Mail, the champion of women's rights.
Hmm

CatsOperatingInGangs · 04/04/2022 08:01

This topic has really shook the narrative that the left is inherently good and the right is bad. I know I have certainly been forced to look at my biases and I’m pleased I have the maturity to see I was wrong in some of my political views. Some people are in able of thinking about this, their views are so entrenched. A woman in our local womens group has left as she cannot stand that we engage with a range of politicians from all colours. The local Labour Party have consistently ignored us yet she thinks we shouldn’t speak to the Tories.

rookiemere · 04/04/2022 07:58

Thank goodness it's being reported somewhere.

However the issue with it being in the DM reinforces the belief that those opposed to transgender participation in womens sports etc. are middle aged/elderly and right wing. So may encourage more young people to be seen to be taking a different stance.

NecessaryScene · 04/04/2022 07:56

The DM is using this issue for their own ends and the fact these people are in the DM makes me think worse of them, not better.

That's a you problem, not a them problem.

If they don't appear in the DM, then they don't reach the squillions of people who don't have that problem.

So the correct thing to do to get maximum reach is appear in the DM.

And the people who do have that problem aren't reading the DM anyway, right? And if you already know who they are, then you're not the target audience.

MidsomerMurmurs · 04/04/2022 07:47

@carefullycourageous

The DM is using this issue for their own ends and the fact these people are in the DM makes me think worse of them, not better.

Obviously it is still a paper with high circulation, but it is an extremely divisive paper and this simply entrenches this as a culture war issue, and also aligns it with party political issues around supporting the Tories.

That’s nice.

So why doesn’t The Guardian cover this topic accurately then?

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 04/04/2022 07:47

@carefullycourageous

The DM is using this issue for their own ends and the fact these people are in the DM makes me think worse of them, not better.

Obviously it is still a paper with high circulation, but it is an extremely divisive paper and this simply entrenches this as a culture war issue, and also aligns it with party political issues around supporting the Tories.

If the Guardian had the guts to speak up for women’s sex-based rights we’d obviously be delighted. But they don’t.
carefullycourageous · 04/04/2022 07:38

The DM is using this issue for their own ends and the fact these people are in the DM makes me think worse of them, not better.

Obviously it is still a paper with high circulation, but it is an extremely divisive paper and this simply entrenches this as a culture war issue, and also aligns it with party political issues around supporting the Tories.

Nobbynobbsknob · 04/04/2022 07:36

The daily mail has turned my dad. He's argued against the me too movement, is hugely misogynistic, and his answer to my comment a few years ago that every woman I knew had been affected by the issues in me too was to get furious that I was accusing him of assaulting mum.

The trans conversation a couple of years ago was ugly. Think 'women should stop making a fuss'...

Yesterday we spoke for almost 2 hours and he's horrified. He listened to everything, asked lots and lots of questions. His attitude now is 'what do I need to do to stop this and protect my granddaughters'. He's about to start spreading the word.

We covered (not in this order)...
Karen White, the webberleys, the california spa, politicians being asked what is a woman, lia Thomas (who has been the big awakening in this house), Emily Bridges, Owen Jones, Alison Bailey, the guides, schools and why my child is in a single sex school when I've always been anti single sex schools, maya forester, prisons, swimming pools, puberty blockers, agp, teen girls and middle aged men, pronouns, me and the kids dad not being able to say anything at work, the convertion therapy bill, a brief history of stonewall and current situation, marks and spencer, and on and on.

Do I wish all the papers were covering this? Of course.
But the biggest voting group is being turned on this because of papers like the daily mail and telegraph. It's making a real difference.

ScreamingMeMe · 04/04/2022 07:32

When The Guardian starts caring about women's rights instead of joining in the throwing of us under the bus, and apologises to the women of Calais for blaming them for their own sexual assaults...then we ca talk.

When The 'Independent' starts caring about women's rights again instead of actively undermining them, and stops employing a transwoman who has 'joked' on twitter about rubbing their penis all over the toilets door handles and peeing all over the toilet seats, not to mention comparing women to sex dolls...then we can talk.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/04/2022 07:32

Thank you EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
I cancelled my paid for Guardian subscription some years ago when it became evident that they were "making the news" about trans issues and deliberately silencing women's vices. Frankly I'm Shock that so many openly accept these levels of deliberate misinformation and censorship from their preferred news source. If they openly lie and silence democratic views, what else are they deliberately censoring?? Confused

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 04/04/2022 07:26

@NonnyMouse1337

Does this mean I have to comb my hair and put on a clean pair of pants with all the new visitors we'll be having? Grin
I'm in my fucking pyjamas Nonny! And there are no biscuits.
EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 04/04/2022 07:25

Grin I woke up to a text about this from Datun. To non-MNers the names must look bonkers.

DomesticatedZombie · 04/04/2022 07:22

@DreamTheMoors

To anyone defending the shitty Daily Mail:

Get back to me when you can justify DM’s abhorrent treatment of — and subsequent court loss to — The Duchess of Sussex.

Or does it only matter with people you like?

The Daily Mail is only interested in selling papers, or lately, in online hits. They’re vipers, snakes. The lowest of the low - they slither from one wretched story to the next.

One positive item is not enough for their salvation, no matter how valuable the subject.

Bird cage material. Print that you bastards.

Er, who is the duchess of Sussex?
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 04/04/2022 07:20

It's like FWR bingo

I'd like to know what these media strategists recommend when preference falsification means that so many people aren't aware of what's happening because MSM doesn't cover it or covers it with anti-woman rhetoric or 'both sides' at best.

A quick wave of apology to anyone who has read my concerns about preference falsification on previous occasions.

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies , Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/cass-sunstein-how-change-happens/

There are few mainstream outlets that will cover relevant stories. When MSM does run an item, it has a perspective that is not gender critical: IPSO also restricts the items that can be reported and how they can be reported.

Look how often MSM slots are cancelled because Stonewall or individuals refuse to appear on a programme with a GC woman or advocate. A case in point is the recent cancellation of the GOSH event. We're all familiar with the dis-invitations of women from conferences, workshops, journal positions etc.

The de-platforming of women and the gender critical perspective from social media facilitates preference falsification as it is only too easy never to see these perspectives and stories. MN is one of the few platforms to host our discussions; even so it's in a naughty corner with additional rules and restrictions. It's common for breakout threads in Chat or AIBU to end up here because so many people don't want it in the general or high-traffic areas.

Lifton outlines the Eight Criteria for Thought Reform and 2 feel relevant to some of the discussion about the appropriateness of media outlets:

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

Needmoresleep · 04/04/2022 07:18

Good this is in the Mail

Bad that it is not in the Guardian

It shakes the Guardian is good, Mail is bad, left wing polarised political narrative.

Maybe, just maybe, people to the left of centre get some things wrong, and people to the right of centre get some things right. Or even that some issues do not split down the political binary. Women’s rights for example. Heaven forbid that women might find that they share views on issues affecting women. And welcome the fact that they are gaining MSM support. Even if the Mail.

That said there is an issue in that plenty of people in influential roles read the Guardian. And are either not aware of the strength of feeling, or assume that if the Mail and Guardian take very different lines on an issue, this means that the Mail’s approach must be wrong.

Which sets us up for more Labour handwringing at the next election. Mail readers vote. They understand this issue and support the Mail’s approach. If the Guardian and it’s readers, including members of the Labour Party hierarchy, can’t see this, Mail readers, and others, will feel they can’t trust Labour to protect their interests or indeed to run the country.

ScreamingMeMe · 04/04/2022 07:14

Fame at last! Love the quotes.

NonnyMouse1337 · 04/04/2022 07:08

Does this mean I have to comb my hair and put on a clean pair of pants with all the new visitors we'll be having? Grin

ResisterRex · 04/04/2022 06:02

@carefullycourageous

The DM is so hypocritical, they are bloody awful about and to women until it suits them, then they pretend to care.
It's like FWR bingo
borntobequiet · 04/04/2022 05:53

Politicians know that Mumsnet has clout, with millions of users. This is something that might worry them in the run up to local elections.

Crcohetmonster · 04/04/2022 05:30

@carefullycourageous

The DM is so hypocritical, they are bloody awful about and to women until it suits them, then they pretend to care.
Name a news outlet, tv station or radio station that is not awful about and to women . There are none.
DreamTheMoors · 04/04/2022 04:45

To anyone defending the shitty Daily Mail:

Get back to me when you can justify DM’s abhorrent treatment of — and subsequent court loss to — The Duchess of Sussex.

Or does it only matter with people you like?

The Daily Mail is only interested in selling papers, or lately, in online hits. They’re vipers, snakes. The lowest of the low - they slither from one wretched story to the next.

One positive item is not enough for their salvation, no matter how valuable the subject.

Bird cage material. Print that you bastards.

Furries · 04/04/2022 04:30

[quote carefullycourageous]@Furries

IMO the DM is a negative, for women and society. We'd all be better off without the existence of the Daily Mail.[/quote]
Ok, hear you loud and clear!

carefullycourageous · 04/04/2022 04:21

@Furries

IMO the DM is a negative, for women and society. We'd all be better off without the existence of the Daily Mail.

WTF475878237NC · 04/04/2022 04:18

The DM is so hypocritical, they are bloody awful about and to women until it suits them, then they pretend to care.

^ This is true. I'm glad it's being reported though.

Furries · 04/04/2022 04:17

@carefullycourageous

The DM is so hypocritical, they are bloody awful about and to women until it suits them, then they pretend to care.
Do you disagree with the sentiment of their reporting around this issue? Are you willing to cut off your nose to spite your face re this? I’m not thrilled that it’s the DM that is highlighting this - but they’re doing a bloody good job as far as I’m concerned.
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