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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GPs will be paid for trans hormone prescriptions - Sussex

108 replies

Igneococcus · 02/04/2022 08:05

I don't quite get it, supposedly it is “not designed to promote the initiation of hormonal treatment in general practice" but also "The document adds that any decision to start hormone therapy is “at the discretion of the individual GP”.
Also it seems non-binary people also need hormones.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eb0eb198-b1f3-11ec-8570-b43daaf58ea1?shareToken=bda8d448f411c2d44f782d823721d844

OP posts:
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/04/2022 13:25

PS I agree that 2 hours of online training are ridiculous, and will leave GPs open to litigation and to inadvertently harming patients.

It's different from the other schemes, because they involve medical conditions we already know about - it's just the drugs that are specialist. So, for example, there is one in my area for a drug for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Well, I studied RA at medical school, and have treated people with RA for 20 years, so I know a fair amount about it. So I feel fairly confident about prescribing a drug for it, once a specialist has confirmed that the drug is right for the patient.

This is totally different from gender dysphoria, which is an idea in someone's head, and a subject about which I have had zero training.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/04/2022 13:11

@OldCrone

So what happens if GPs declines to get involved in the scheme? The patient complains about transphobia, and the GP get disciplined by NHSE and potentially struck off by the GMC.

But this scheme seems to be very similar to what the Webberleys have been doing at Gender GP. Self-diagnosis by the patient who then chooses their own drugs. The Webberleys are both currently under investigation by the GMC.

Or are GPs somehow going to be equipped to diagnose gender dysphoria in patients following their 2 1/2 hour online course? Doesn't this require some sort of psychological assessment which wouldn't really fit in to a short appointment with a GP?

No, it's different because it's an NHS scheme. There are similar arrangements for various specialist drugs: a specialist initiates them, but GPs prescribe follow up prescriptions and do any monitoring required. In most cases, it's good, because it saves patients schlepping up to see their specialist, just to get a repeat prescription, while also ensuring that GPs aren't prescribing drugs we aren't familiar with. But the other drugs aren't anything controversial - they are only part of the scheme because they require specialist knowledge to initiate.

As it's an NHS scheme, there shouldn't be any risk of GPs getting into trouble for participating in it. The risk will be all on the other side - even though it's theoretically optional, who is going to risk being accused of transphobia by refusing to participate?

KohlaParasaurus · 02/04/2022 13:10

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

At the moment GPs are not initiating cross sex hormones at all, let alone "without a whimper", and I suspect most won't do so despite this misguided initiative

The trouble is, NHS England, the GMC and BMA are all Stonewalled.

So what happens if GPs declines to get involved in the scheme? The patient complains about transphobia, and the GP get disciplined by NHSE and potentially struck off by the GMC. Most GPs are not going to risk their livelihoods by taking a stand, and I don't mean that as a criticism. Why should they face the sack, or at least months of public shaming and stress, because of NHS England's cowardice? NHSE is passing the buck.

I agree that GPs should not be being put in the position of having to worry that if they decline to become involved in any part of this scheme for any reason (and the likeliest reason is lack of expertise in what is a very specialised area of health care) they will be at risk of a complaint. I'm not sure that even taking on the additional workload of annual health checks for trans and NB people is a good use of GPs' time at present, let alone training to a point at which someone like me could convince a fitness to practice hearing that I was suitably qualified to initiate puberty blockers or cross sex hormones if a patient had complications or changed their mind about transitioning.
Electrox · 02/04/2022 13:04

Surely we want them to transition properly, isn’t hormones the start?

You cannot change the sex of a human. No hormones, clothes, surgery or makeup can alter the XX or XY chromosomes which are determined at conception. An adult who has particular body parts removed is still exactly the same sex they were before. Being born male or female is a fact of life, it is not an error on nature's part and it is definitely not a medical complaint.

Abra1d1 · 02/04/2022 13:03

So the quarterly battle to get hold of Oestrogel if you're on HRT will be even worse.

StellaAndCrow · 02/04/2022 13:02

@ResisterRex

There's this:

A document, seen by The Times, says that the Sussex scheme is “not designed to promote the initiation of hormonal treatment in general practice”.

And then this:

It says that it aims to provide “interim support” to patients on the gender clinic waiting list and “improve access” to hormone therapy.

It's hard to tell if that means interim, or start of process.

Debbie Hayton thinks it's sub-standard, saying it's nothing like the processes she went through. Which she says are the right ones (longer, more checks).

Poor wording, but I suspect they're using "interim" to mean "while waiting for assessment at Gender Clinic". So it would actually be initiation.

Rather than finding out why there are so many thousands of young women being referred that W/L are so long.

StellaAndCrow · 02/04/2022 12:59

Most GPs are not going to be happy about this. With a few notable exceptions!

OldCrone · 02/04/2022 12:52

So what happens if GPs declines to get involved in the scheme? The patient complains about transphobia, and the GP get disciplined by NHSE and potentially struck off by the GMC.

But this scheme seems to be very similar to what the Webberleys have been doing at Gender GP. Self-diagnosis by the patient who then chooses their own drugs. The Webberleys are both currently under investigation by the GMC.

Or are GPs somehow going to be equipped to diagnose gender dysphoria in patients following their 2 1/2 hour online course? Doesn't this require some sort of psychological assessment which wouldn't really fit in to a short appointment with a GP?

SamphiretheStickerist · 02/04/2022 12:51

Not at the moment, he is still Dr non Grata isn't he?

LunaLights · 02/04/2022 12:34

Does this involve Harrop?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/04/2022 12:32

At the moment GPs are not initiating cross sex hormones at all, let alone "without a whimper", and I suspect most won't do so despite this misguided initiative

The trouble is, NHS England, the GMC and BMA are all Stonewalled.

So what happens if GPs declines to get involved in the scheme? The patient complains about transphobia, and the GP get disciplined by NHSE and potentially struck off by the GMC. Most GPs are not going to risk their livelihoods by taking a stand, and I don't mean that as a criticism. Why should they face the sack, or at least months of public shaming and stress, because of NHS England's cowardice? NHSE is passing the buck.

KohlaParasaurus · 02/04/2022 11:32

@tootiredtobother

OFFS I asked GP for HRT, told no then went private for first prescription, and got it, now waiting to see if GP will pick up the prescription request. Why do women have to beg and fight for HRT, and these people get hormones with hardly a whimper from GP's
At the moment GPs are not initiating cross sex hormones at all, let alone "without a whimper", and I suspect most won't do so despite this misguided initiative.

I strongly agree that we should be providing better menopause care than we currently do.

BootsAndRoots · 02/04/2022 11:29

@MintyMoocow

Surely we want them to transition properly, isn’t hormones the start? You can’t scream “Men in dresses” and then complain when they are started down the track of full transition.
Self ID is a serious problem (in my eyes this campaign by Stonewall et al has led to more discrimination towards transsexual people then there was before, self inflicted really).

But we seriously need to get away from this idea of transitioning being the panacea. Too many people are transitioning and they don't have gender dysmorphia. Any gender non-conformity is now treated with transitioning, instead of just letting people be. AGP is continually silenced and incorrectly claimed to be dysmorphia. Clusters of teenage girls are transitioned etc.

VelvetChairGirl · 02/04/2022 11:25

CAMHS is terrible my son has been waiting for a ASD and ADHD assessment since he was 6, he'll be 12 soon and he still hasnt had an assessment, I've had a vague promise that it'll definitely happen before November (believe it when I see it) .

he did get about 5 fixed term exclusions from primary school tho due to safe guarding (mainly him threatening to throw himself down the stairs and them saying they didnt have the staff to deal with him so take him home)

and he's just had his first one for secondary school for punching another boy, then seeking him out about 20 mins later to do it again.

but hey cant have the trans kids feeling distressed can we they have to be dealt with asap, I guess because theres profit in that pumping them full of drugs. that doesnt work for ASD no profit there so fuck em.

JessPlaysGames · 02/04/2022 11:23

This would mean I won't have to wait 24 years for my hormones, or pay to go private. This is good

InvisibleDragon · 02/04/2022 11:19

Thanks for your really thoughtful and informative posts Faffertea!

This whole area of medicine is such a mess. It used to be so specialised that referral to a tiny national service was appropriate. But that's not workable now there are so many people seeking to transition.

I'm tentatively optimistic about the idea of regional hubs, but I'm concerned about how these would work in practice - would there be a functioning MDT or would it be a rubber stamp?

CarbonelCat · 02/04/2022 11:10

So, I can't get a Mirena coil for my debilitating menstrual periods because there's no one at my surgery who can fit them, and the local sexual health clinic is still in covid measures and won't see you except in an emergency (gynae problems are not a sexual health emergency. But I could get some random hormones sorted if I feel I'm the wrong sex? I really do feel like I don't want to be an anaemic woman....

Terfydactyl · 02/04/2022 11:02

@MintyMoocow

Surely we want them to transition properly, isn’t hormones the start? You can’t scream “Men in dresses” and then complain when they are started down the track of full transition.
Cant men simply wear a dress if they want? Do they have to transition, I mean pips bunce manages fine wearing a dress or a suit and has no intention of (as yet) transitioning.

No one cares what pips wears, women only care that pips uses the mens spaces and wins mens awards.

AlisonDonut · 02/04/2022 10:58

It is like they saw the GenderGP model and thought they'd mirror it.

Without carrying on to the end of the paragraph that shows how they are suspended/being investigated/had to sell off the company and run it through Spain to get around the actual LAW in the UK.

viques · 02/04/2022 10:57

@Faffertea

A few things to unpick here…

This is part of a move to try and set up services that are acting like satellite services for patients on GIDS waiting list.
Currently there is a referral form to complete for GIDS which asks questions about how and why someone wants to transition/identifies as transgender, what their mental health is like etc. It’s a pain in the arse to complete but is not (in my opinion) designed to be a thorough exploration of the patient’s situation and to be fair that’s not the point of a referral, that’s what GIDS should be doing.
Having recently (and unhappily because I have concerns about GIDS but can’t refuse because that’s the NHS pathway and a fear of being labelled transphobic if I speak up) referred a 16 year old teenager. I have had a reply telling me that there is a plan to set up this service starting in Spring 2022 because of how long the wait is and I may be asked to issue prescriptions. Ironically though they make it very clear that the patient will not be under GIDS clinical responsibility until physically seen.
To add some context to this a few years ago the GMC issued guidance to GPs about providing ‘bridging’ prescriptions for hormones to patients on GIDS waiting list which contradicts its own guidance about prescribing only within our own competence and many GPs were and are very unhappy about it. I’m aware of several colleagues who have had patients who’ve seen GenderGP have letters about prescribing hormones reminding them they can fall foul of GMC guidance on this in an attempt to coerce prescribing.

The funding thing is actually pretty standard. Funding for practices is really quite complicated. GP practices are paid a basic amount of money (around £99) per patient per year to provide all Primary Care services such as medication, appointments with doctors, nurses etc and to pay all the staff costs, utilities etc. Clearly that is not enough money so there is additional funding for non core services. For example, childhood vaccinations are non core, so if you do them you get paid etc. Lots of routine work is funded in this way. In addition to this there are other schemes that practices in some parts of the country are offered because there is a local need for it and practices sign up to offer this work for additional funding but have to demonstrate they have done the work in the contract.
The vast majority of GPs will not do something they think is not good for their patient just because they’ll get paid for it. The biggest worry here for me is that there will be those who will do it because they think they’re doing the right thing or because GIDS tells them it’s the right thing without being aware of the full issue.

Thank you, that is very interesting, especially about the patient not being seen as the responsibility of GIDS until after initial consultation, on the surface this seems reasonable , if I thought I had cancer, I would want a proper diagnosis using diagnostic tools my GP does not possess, and prior to diagnosis I would not be my oncologists responsibility . However , neither would I expect or want my GP to prescribe interim chemotherapy for me based on an online course lasting a couple of hours without reference to the support services and monitoring care that a specialist oncology department offers.

It does seem as though the responsibility for any adverse outcome is being firmly glued onto GPs shoulders. What happens when a patient takes gp prescribed hormones and bumps them up a bit with stuff bought online , who monitors the patients wellbeing, both physical and psychological over what could be several years before GIDS appointments are available, who makes sure that this doesn’t turn into a free for all market place where hormone medication becomes another commodity on the black market . Who is ultimately responsible when a patient decides not to continue with their treatment and finds they are permanently damaged?

At a time when GPs are under huge stress and pressure I hope you all have the energy to band together and fight this. It is not about patient care, it is about an ill advised knee jerk reaction to social craziness.

TackyTriceratops · 02/04/2022 10:53

Many menopausal women also need testosterone but that's near impossible to get as is obviously off licence.

Unless we all Rock up as non binary and demand patches and testosterone for all the personalities in our body Hmm

TackyTriceratops · 02/04/2022 10:50

Will gps be aid to give out hrt to menopausal women? They're paid to give out anti depressants but this doesn't protect bones and heart.

OldCrone · 02/04/2022 10:44

[quote Outofexcuses]**@Faffertea
I'm sure you will continue to practice safely, but you say 'I’m aware of several colleagues who have had patients who’ve seen GenderGP have letters about prescribing hormones reminding them they can fall foul of GMC guidance on this in an attempt to coerce prescribing.' That's a pretty scary threat for a GP, isn't it?[/quote]
The doctors who run GenderGP, Helen and Michael Webberley, are both under investigation by the GMC.

Michael Webberley's tribunal is ongoing, Helen Webberley's starts again on Monday.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4502351-Dr-Michael-Webberley

Anyone who is suggesting that GenderGP are authorities on GMC guidance should be reminded of their activities.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 02/04/2022 10:39

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AlisonDonut · 02/04/2022 10:25

I just don't get it either.

Won't give middle aged women HRT even though it helps heart health and guards against osteoporosis.

Will give teens and young people hormones of the opposite sex, which causes osteoporosis and all sorts of unknown lifelong issues.