Page 6 | Breaking news - Emily won't compete

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 01/04/2022 22:02

I'm sure there's something in all of that, but it'd be wrong to say that measured T levels don't matter at all or that medication doesn't do anything

I didn't.

EB does not have a VSD.

As for the rest, people who live with VSDs have repeatedly asked others not to use them and their traumatic medical histories as a rhetorical device or in these discussions. There are many, many threads about VSD, athletes with VSD and sports already on MN. Many of them have discussions about why T is not a magical measurement and is more readily measurable than it is fully necessarily meaningful as a standalone item.

Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 22:02

The reduction in performance is about 5%, still well short of the 10% average difference between men and women and there's some evidence that heavy training in men can mitigate against that loss.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

puffyisgood · 01/04/2022 21:49

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus - I'm sure there's something in all of that, but it'd be wrong to say that measured T levels don't matter at all or that medication doesn't do anything - the Caster Semenya case strongly suggests otherwise, she (broadly speaking a male bodied person other than in terms of external genitalia) currently refuses to take suppressants but in the past they've seemingly had a measurable negative impact on her performance in the past. I think intuitively it makes a lot of sense that, either through legacy advantages of the skeleton etc (maybe even the muscles) or measurement error, synthetically reducing T levels needn't exactly compensate for birth advantages, but it clearly does do something, so, other things being equal, a bigger reduction means more than a smaller one.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 01/04/2022 21:23

@puffyisgood

I'm no fan of Ms Bridges or her ilk competing in the women's event, but what she says about T levels is potentially interesting, if she's talking about having fallen into perhaps the upper end of the regular female range then, whilst it'd by no means eradicate all objections to her competing against women, there'd be a stronger case than with one of these jokers who's barely scraped under an absurdly lax limit such as 5.0 nmol/L, i.e. below the normal male range but well above the female.

I don't want to go into the technicalities but the literal timing of when a blood test level of T matters. E.g., it's higher after training/exercise or exertion and it's affected by energy availability.

So, if I ever needed to produce a lower T level in a man, I'd make absolutely sure not to have a test drawn around the time of exertion (so, not near a training session). I'd also recommend food restriction or even fasting for a couple of days.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130813201452.htm

I have no interest in finessing T levels that are above the physiological range for women when the discussion is about people who've been through male puberty. Carole Hooven's book Testosterone probably has some interesting discussion of related and relevant issues.

puffyisgood · 01/04/2022 20:45

@ResisterRex - I don't really know about that hip angle stuff, it might be right or might not. not really topical to this thread but for me the absolute no-brainers, the most shockingly egregiously wrong examples of male bodied athletes being allowed to compete against women are in those sports where 'being a big person' is really important to an extent that it can easily trump skill, meaning that weight categories are standard. the combat sports are the obvious example, but weighifting too in the sense that the advantage is measurable. the open weight men's lifting record is some 44% higher than the open weight women's lifting record - see en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting. men are far far stronger 'pound for pound' - the women's open weight record, held by a 5'10", 150kg woman, is less than the men's record for 67kg men, held by a 5'4" guy, but you're really getting into laughable territory when you allow men of any size to compete against women. if six foot-something, hulking, Laurel Hubbard hadn't been so injury prone and so far into middle age she'd have brushed aside the competition at the Olympics, just by being a halfway decent local level men's super heavyweight lifter.

Gosports · 01/04/2022 20:40

Have we all seen the photo of Emily that accompanied the statement? Someone really is talented…with photoshop.

puffyisgood · 01/04/2022 20:32

[quote Truthlikeness]A study in 2018 found that 25% of Olympic-level MALE elite athletes had testosterone levels below the 10 nmol/L threshold.

Testosterone levels are complete distraction.

www.biointeractive.org/sites/default/files/TestosteroneAthletes-Educator-DP.pdf[/quote]
the low male readings are quite interesting, the high female ones less so, with the outliers at the top certainly being intersex or doped, it is literally impossible for anyone to get to those T levels without the aid of pair of functioning male testes or a syringe containing something potent.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 01/04/2022 20:30

Emily’s sadness doesbt outrank the sadness of the women they are pushing out

Race with the men - we’d cheer you all the way

Truthlikeness · 01/04/2022 20:27

A study in 2018 found that 25% of Olympic-level MALE elite athletes had testosterone levels below the 10 nmol/L threshold.

Testosterone levels are complete distraction.

www.biointeractive.org/sites/default/files/TestosteroneAthletes-Educator-DP.pdf

ResisterRex · 01/04/2022 20:16

@puffyisgood

I'm no fan of Ms Bridges or her ilk competing in the women's event, but what she says about T levels is potentially interesting, if she's talking about having fallen into perhaps the upper end of the regular female range then, whilst it'd by no means eradicate all objections to her competing against women, there'd be a stronger case than with one of these jokers who's barely scraped under an absurdly lax limit such as 5.0 nmol/L, i.e. below the normal male range but well above the female.

Please see this article for why it's not just about testosterone levels:

If you believe in fair competition, Emily Bridges should not be racing Laura Kenny

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3081c8c0-af7c-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=7945c6a120d5a220f71fc30adaca4237

Runningupthecurtains · 01/04/2022 20:06

Has a three male, one natal female team ever placed on the podium at a male championship? If Bridges performance levels have dropped to those of a natal female that should be possible right?

NurseBernard · 01/04/2022 20:03

I realise a lot of 21 year olds are but this is something else.

It’s almost male level entitlement.

OvaHere · 01/04/2022 19:59

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Thanks ResisterRex It was inevitable that Emily would play the "I'm sad" card. As usual, the rights of women to fair competition never pass the lips of those demanding their wishes are centred by everyone else - all the bloody time. Still, Emily and Lia have moved mountains in terms of demonstrating the problem to the general population.

So fucking self absorbed. I realise a lot of 21 year olds are but this is something else. Pathological self absorption. It's criminal that those in authority don't just say no. It's a word that should be said an awful lot more.

Clymene · 01/04/2022 19:50

@puffyisgood

I'm no fan of Ms Bridges or her ilk competing in the women's event, but what she says about T levels is potentially interesting, if she's talking about having fallen into perhaps the upper end of the regular female range then, whilst it'd by no means eradicate all objections to her competing against women, there'd be a stronger case than with one of these jokers who's barely scraped under an absurdly lax limit such as 5.0 nmol/L, i.e. below the normal male range but well above the female.

T levels are a smoke screen. All they demonstrate is that the male person is taking a lot of drugs which artificially reduce their natural testosterone. It doesn't remove any of the other advantages men have over women.

Also, last month, bridges was competing with men. Happily it seems. Bridges can carry on doing that.

Dinosauria · 01/04/2022 19:43

@Runningupthecurtains

I'm pretty sure that if my 6'4" rugby playing DH dropped his testosterone level below 5 (which incidentally is still waaaaaay above the normal level for women) it would be absolutely safe for him to play a contact sport against women. I can't imagine what possible danger he pose. Even if people don't care about fairness how can they not see the danger?

We need him to do this, people say female athletes should refuse to participate, I say men should declare themselves as women, they have less to lose and will show this for the farce it is.

ChateauMargaux · 01/04/2022 19:43

The use of the words... 'well within the testosterone limits' is distraction... designed to illicit sympathy and make you think that maybe... if Bridges did approximate female levels, it wouldn't be so bad.. she did come last in that race in Wales after all.. maybe she is not a threat.. it's only one rider..

DO NOT FALL FOR THIS!! The evidence is clear, the advantages cannot be reversed by reducing testosterone. I hope the Equality in Sport Guidelines are shared widely.

NurseBernard · 01/04/2022 19:42

@MrsOvertonsWindow

I had a wonderful conversation with my adult daughter this week - I just listened as she talked about lesbians being hassled into accepting the penis in their dating, removing women's language, JKR, sport, the drivel spouted by Labour politicians (who we'd both like to vote for) and the gaslighting of children. There's a massive amount of resistance amongst the 20 / 30 year olds. They're just keeping quiet like everyone else because of the bullying but the dam is ready to burst.

This is so reassuring to hear.

Gender has no relevance in sport.

Gender has no relevance in anything.

People can change their gender to their heart’s content.

Sport is segregated by sex for a reason. Women have single-sex spaces for a reason.

ChateauMargaux · 01/04/2022 19:40

This article makes it clear, based on a review of extensive peer reviewed evidence that fairness and inclusion cannot happen in female sport. It is well worth reading.

equalityinsport.org/resources/index.html

This document sets out clear principles...
Competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self identification into female competition.
Segregation on the basis of sex is lawful.
Testosterone suppression is unlikely to guarantee fairness between transgender women and natal females in gender affected sport.

If fairness is a priority... no males in female sport.

Runningupthecurtains · 01/04/2022 19:34

I'm pretty sure that if my 6'4" rugby playing DH dropped his testosterone level below 5 (which incidentally is still waaaaaay above the normal level for women) it would be absolutely safe for him to play a contact sport against women. I can't imagine what possible danger he pose. Even if people don't care about fairness how can they not see the danger?

puffyisgood · 01/04/2022 19:32

I'm no fan of Ms Bridges or her ilk competing in the women's event, but what she says about T levels is potentially interesting, if she's talking about having fallen into perhaps the upper end of the regular female range then, whilst it'd by no means eradicate all objections to her competing against women, there'd be a stronger case than with one of these jokers who's barely scraped under an absurdly lax limit such as 5.0 nmol/L, i.e. below the normal male range but well above the female.

Cwenthryth · 01/04/2022 19:22

Bridges said that she comfortably met the required testosterone levels and outlined her heartfelt desire to race. “No one should have to choose between being who they are, and participating in the sport that they love,” she said.

But no one is saying Bridges can’t compete, are they? Just in the same group as before.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/04/2022 19:06

I had a wonderful conversation with my adult daughter this week - I just listened as she talked about lesbians being hassled into accepting the penis in their dating, removing women's language, JKR, sport, the drivel spouted by Labour politicians (who we'd both like to vote for) and the gaslighting of children.
There's a massive amount of resistance amongst the 20 / 30 year olds. They're just keeping quiet like everyone else because of the bullying but the dam is ready to burst.

WellNotReally · 01/04/2022 19:05

@ResisterRex

I agree. DH has been peaked by Thomas and Bridges. He's furious about the whole thing, and may even write to our MP(!).

Good I came down the other morning to DH furiously typing away. Turns out he was emailing our MP, our MSP and our local councillor about women's safety, single sex spaces and fairness in sport.

ResisterRex · 01/04/2022 18:59

I agree. DH has been peaked by Thomas and Bridges. He's furious about the whole thing, and may even write to our MP(!).

MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/04/2022 18:55

Thanks ResisterRex
It was inevitable that Emily would play the "I'm sad" card. As usual, the rights of women to fair competition never pass the lips of those demanding their wishes are centred by everyone else - all the bloody time.
Still, Emily and Lia have moved mountains in terms of demonstrating the problem to the general population.