Gender argument - caught in the middle

You are right that the conversation around sports is unpleasant for the TW as well.

However, you'll see on other boards (every day) dilemmas about how to handle a disappointed child who isn't invited to a party. The solution is never to force the party host to make room.

Managing expectations is also a way to avoid this upset. Clear rules that say "nobody born male will ever compete in female sports," is actually kinder than the flip flopping kind of approach. Kinder for everyone.

I actually think it's closer to the real meaning of transphobia to give people with trans identities less clear and honest advice, to get their unrealistic hopes up, to allow them to muddle up their medical notes so they get sex-inappropriate care, to tell them that lesbians will date them so go ahead and cut bits off (everyone else merits real informed consent) etc.

This is the easy option, not the caring one, the caring one is telling people the truth, even if it is hard.

Since I posted British cycling has stopped Emily Bridges from competing.

British Cycling didn’t stop EB from competing UCI did.

'Female humans have rights too' is not an extremist position.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

sorry but I dont buy it, trans women are a subset of men, they choose to present in a culturally different way same as punks and goths etc and as such they have the same protection in UK law as everyone else to their freedom of expression etc.

that doesn't give them the right to muscle other people out of their rights, there is no top trumps, grow up.

the opposing sides are too extreme for me and I haven't found many discussions helpful. It's complicated and currently it seems impossible to reach a balance.

It's impossible to reach a balance because that is not what trans lobby groups etc are asking for.

And any balance on women's part would involve protecting vulnerable women such as rape victims, DV survivors so any compromise made won't satisfy the demands for validation.

It's only made complicated by trying to find a middle ground that doesn't exist.

The middle ground that everyone would be happy is one that many GC feminists support. Good services and healthcare for trans people. Dignity, protection in law but as trans people of their biological sex. Basic safeguarding of children, with the same care and diligence to their needs regardless of whether they are trans or not.

But this is rejected time and again because it is a so called extreme view.

I've never ever seen a trans person preface anything they've written with I understand women are vulnerable because xyz, unless they are replying to a specific point about xyz. Even then it's usually so they can play the oppression Olympics and claims trans people have it worse.

Whereas women are most anxious to preface any sentences or thoughts with concern and sympathy for trans people.

It might be female socialisation talking but for a lot of us it's fear that anything other than making it 💯 clear we consider trans people's feelings is construed as transphobia.

It's actually exhausting having to pander simple, direct thoughts in this way and is just another way we are silenced.

Completely agree. Some things are just nothing to do with these people but they must be constantly centred.

Hi @Baggingarea I am more in the middle also and have stopped posting on here about trans because the opposing sides are too extreme for me and I haven't found many discussions helpful. It's complicated and currently it seems impossible to reach a balance.
I've almost fallen out with friends about it - at both extremes - but I know I don't know everything so I now avoid any discussion.
I just watch and listen now. With obvious exceptions

So you agree that third spaces have been suggested by those you have deemed not moderate enough in their opinions/actions?
I just find it particularly galling that you are willing to criticize women defending sex based rights, yet when called upon to defend your opinion or expand your argument you hide behind your 'lack of knowledge'.
So you are happy to tell others they are doing it wrong, without having any understanding or intention to model correct activist behaviour yourself.
Feels a bit mansplainy.

I don't know if you're confusing me with another poster or not, but I haven't told anyone that they're doing anything wrong, nor have I criticized anyone, or policed anyone's tone? I believe that there is room for discussion in order to come to a middle ground - if you take any criticism, policing of tone or accusations of wrongdoing from that then there's not really anything I can do..

I will not throw around an extensive version of my opinion when I have openly admitted that it's not a fully formed one, that I don't have loads of knowledge on the issue and more, that seems a particularly stupid thing to do. If asked my opinion, as I was then I will give it, whilst at the same time saying I'm a "newbie". I really don't see the issue with that.

Eto be honest I think the whole, " We need to be more moderate, we need to be understanding of trans issues whilst championing women's interests" is symptomatic of how one sided this power struggle is.

I've never ever seen a trans person preface anything they've written with I understand women are vulnerable because xyz, unless they are replying to a specific point about xyz. Even then it's usually so they can play the oppression Olympics and claims trans people have it worse.

Whereas women are most anxious to preface any sentences or thoughts with concern and sympathy for trans people.

It might be female socialisation talking but for a lot of us it's fear that anything other than making it 💯 clear we consider trans people's feelings is construed as transphobia.

It's actually exhausting having to pander simple, direct thoughts in this way and is just another way we are silenced.

However women's rights aren't mine to give away and I realise that my approach would make the loos unusable for some of my Muslim colleagues and others who would not feel able to share in those circumstances.

I cannot countenance penises in womens refuges, prisons, showers etc. I may feel less concerned about bodies that have fully transitioned, but again these are not my rights to give away.

A no always trumps any number of yeses and therefore women will continue to fight for single sex spaces to protect the dignity and safety of all.

It's ok to have divergent thinking, women aren't a homogeneous group. As long as you can accept others views and note that others may have needs that you don't have then surely it's ok to have a reasonable discussion.

However in my experience there is not very much reasoned debate from some tra extremists which can result in more people become entrenched and committed to single sex spaces.

People that still want to invade a single sex space whilst knowing they are unwelcome and causing fear are probably the exact people women are most afraid of. Someone that chooses to ignore women's boundaries, concerns and fears in preference to their own desires doesn't sound very kind or nice.

Sorry @Artichokeleaves I see you mentioned the rape services.

Feels a bit mansplainy.

To be fair, it is 'tone policing' in nature.

I can think of many things shared by all women and no transwomen….

There is a rape survivor who has posted on here about how her rape crisis centre (I believe it was?) had a women's, men's and trans group. Trans women wanted to use the women's group so the women who wanted female- only got nothing, and were called bigots on top.

There are so many instances of this. You are naive to think that offering a 3rd space without single-sex spaces is the answer, because it's been tried, and it isn't.

And while I get they want the word women. You then get prominent activists stating things like 'we are now accepted as women, it is discrimination to not accept us as female'. I am paraphrasing but that is what a now ex-academic US cyclist transitioner declared not so long ago.

Accepting 'purity' of thought that transitioned males are women leads to the next boundary creep. It is in action already.

Here is another example.

KatyMontgomerie Mar23 on Twitter:

There isn't anything shared by all cis women and by no trans women. Given that, the only remaining reason for that belief is ignorance and/or irrational prejudice

This is a social media influencer who posters often will even try to use as an appeal to authority. And this is what they are saying.

It is this purity that will side line any reasonable alternatives proffered up.

So you agree that third spaces have been suggested by those you have deemed not moderate enough in their opinions/actions?

I just find it particularly galling that you are willing to criticize women defending sex based rights, yet when called upon to defend your opinion or expand your argument you hide behind your 'lack of knowledge'.

So you are happy to tell others they are doing it wrong, without having any understanding or intention to model correct activist behaviour yourself.

Feels a bit mansplainy.

Had a discussion with three young men on mothers day (2 are mine) about trans rights

Got slightly heated at points but all three appreciated the unfairness of males in female sports…we just differed on the solution

And it only occurred to me the next day that the main reason we didn’t agree was because at least 1 of them saw trans women as a subset of women hence the ‘unfairness’ to transwomen when i said sex based sports

I feel the same OP.

Mylittlephony Respectfully, you're assuming a fair bit about me there. I never said that other women hadn't considered third, fourth, fifth or sixth spaces, nor presented it as my own never before heard breakthrough solution. I specifically said "in my head this is a solution" in response to someone (maybe you, not sure) who asked my opinion.

And yet, even now there is a transitioned male on tiktok saying that 'bigoted' opinions should be met with 'violence'. Because words are violent. And ends it with 'so tell me, do you feel safe now?'

Like the one with the transitioned male in what seems like their parent's toilet. Declaring it was their intention that not one 'bigot' should feel safe going to the toilet.

Posters who declare 'both sides are doing it' have lost any sense of proportionality. They have fallen into this trap that those video makers want. That 'words' expressing material reality are worthy of videos and photos that are expressing actual violence.

There is no proportionality there, it is threats and violence coming from one side. Not just words like 'male', but they use words like 'you deserve any violence that you get and you don't deserve any safety you bigot', and much worse language, threats and slurs than that.

Please explain where the proportionality is that you see to back a claim of 'both sides'.

. I have massive respect for the women "in the front"
I respectfully disagree. It's not respectful to assume the women 'at the front' have not considered third spaces or similar.

It's particularly notable that this was remarked upon several times before your post, but you presented it as 'your own solution, which could only have been arrived at from a middle ground perspective'. It's not respectful to not listen to others ideas or avoid their questions.

@Baggingarea if you want to see reasoned arguments with no unpleasantness - perceived or otherwise - directed at you, try reading Material Girls by Kathleen Stock or Trans by Helen Joyce.

Mylittlephonypony I can't tackle it here and now because I don't have the knowledge, nor the time to do more research. Could I tackle it if I dedicated enough time to researching and learning? I expect I could.

I'm not expecting other women to do the work for me at all, but nor do I think that I, myself, am the best person to be at the forefront of something like this even if I did have the knowledge. I'm much more of a helper than a leader and where I live, these issues aren't as prominent (whilst remaining important) and it isn't something at the front of my mind, other things are currently. I have massive respect for the women "in the front" and will do what I can to help, but not lead.