Gender argument - caught in the middle

No, Fleur suggested four spaces. I don’t think OP did. And I understand the theory as why Fleur suggested them.

Of course we know that third spaces are rejected. I suspect four spaces would be rejected too. But that doesn’t stop us discussing it theoretically.

And it doesn’t stop pp from still understanding and believing that female safe spaces are necessary and not transphobic to expect.

I am not sure they had opinions all that different though. Some not thought through to where that thought could and would go, but not all that different.*

Well they certainly were different to their own views as they contradicted their own ideas. You can't enforce single sex spaces, have third spaces and have everyone where they are comfortable.

But oh, wait they suggested four spaces instead of three. How inspiring. Why didn't we think of that. The gender wars are solved!

I would've also disappeared after the "Shhh the grownups are talking" comment to be honest.
To be fair that comment wasn't directed at the OP it was for someone who showed up to claim that we lived in a gender paradise until nasty bullies invented sex based rights/pronouns etc a week past Tuesday.

I would've also disappeared after the "Shhh the grownups are talking" comment to be honest.

And I would have stuck around to understand why someone would have posted something like that in response to my post. Because I feel the need to understand whether that person has a genuine point.

just is of a different opinion

I am not sure they had opinions all that different though. Some not thought through to where that thought could and would go, but not all that different.

They seemed to almost desperately want them to be different though.

To me, it was almost like OP wanted reassurance that they were not like regular posters on this board.

Yes and it's notable that all that arrive to throw mud lack the courage of convictions to form their own arguments and are busy with one liners and straw men.

The OP has predictably disappeared. This person was not "caught in the middle" but was a shit-stirrer.

@Baggingarea just want to say 100% feel the same, just toxic

All this time before now, they were called gendered pronouns.

Yes it related to linguistic gender based on either sex or feminine or masculine grammar rules, not gender identity.

This is the thread where Charlie posted earlier evidence of the use for ‘sex-based’ rights.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4517490-The-main-flaw-in-the-trans-rights-argument?pg=2

I'm pretty sure you're the ones most adamant about women being physically inferior (and therefore in need of a completely separate category), whereas trans people are the ones arguing that sex shouldn't matter and that all people should be treated as equal.

This all sounds really familiar. I am experiencing significant deja vu with the wording in these posts.

Shall we post the studies that show a clear male advantage derived from a virulised puberty? They are the same ones that show that transitioned males still retain most of that advantage.

Not sure why you dispute that males have physical advantages. Even Joanne Harper agrees with that.

But very very few posters have ever used the term ‘inferior’ when discussing women’s physical reality. Certainly no one on this thread until you.

You are using that word as a manipulative tool.

And then in the same breath you move from physicality to the emotional need of equality.

@bagging clumsy wording for us to the debacle in sport so no, I personally don't give much leeway to clumsy wording anymore especially when the undertone is "be kind".

And when you say "respect someone's transition", is this respect nuanced enough and robust enough to accept the transition without affirming it?

Just like "sex-based rights", the phrase "sex-based pronouns" was invented in the recent years by yourselves.

No. You have tried this one before. My uni degree in industrial relations in the 90s referred to sex-based rights. You are mistaken. Just as you were last time you tried that trope.

I mean you really are laying out the trope for us like a live demonstration of extreme activist tactics now.

You've just come to associate feminine pronouns with certain body types and physical characteristics, but there's nothing inherently "factual" about that association.

Substitute "femininity" for "feminine pronouns" and you're repeating our own gender-critical arguments back to us.

Femininity (and masculinity) has nothing to do with biological sex. That's literally the point we are making. Glad you agree!

It's also interesting that misgendering is 'deliberate and malicious' and yet you have used the term cis which many women consider i) a slur and ii) made up nonsense.

How on earth did Shakespeare know which parts in his plays needed to be played by men because women were not allowed to perform?

It is a veritable mystery my liege.

Or which sexed bodies to impregnante to make babies?

Again, why would we want to do that? Why is it our job to entertain you on a rainy Thursday night? If you have nothing constructive to say, and you think that coming onto a forum discussing women’s rights and shouting at women for discussing said rights, is a fun thing to do, that says a lot more about you than it does about any of the grown ups discussing this matter.

Charley posted an excellent post (which I annoyingly cannot find) on this thread or a similar one in which she gave several such examples, at least two in relation to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the date she gave was, as far as I can remember, 1995 for one citation.

It's interesting that sports like gymnastics which has gravitated toward having a good proportion of participants that are female, have systems that judge and commend the attributes women excel at as part of the sport.
They also have disciplines that are different for males and females that requires different attributes so rather than seeing men struggle on the balance beam or woman unable to perform many of the moves done on the rings it has evolved different disciplines to favour different body types which seem a very strange thing to do if we are all the same apart from lipstick and hair cuts.

Find any instance of the phrase "sex-based pronouns" being used before 2015. Then I will stand corrected.

Why would we want to do that?

Obviously for clarity gymnastics is a combination of strength speed skill balance and flexibility.

So men will have advantage in some areas and women in another.

It's why they have different moves and equipment.