Gender argument - caught in the middle

Oof @bagging...

You say a lot of things from the top of the fence...

"I'm not saying be kind" yet "there's a club of mean girls"
"It's hateful to ask if Lia looks like a woman" but "males should not be in women's sport"
"Both sides need to find a middle ground" yet "we can't verbalise see any difference between the sides." All the same yet different at the same time...

Wow.

'reason in all things'

No-one is asking you to apologise for your feelings. But you are foolish if you let your thoughts and opinions be ruled by your feelings. You would be wise to base your thoughts and opinions on fact and logic.

It is impossible to have a debate with someone whose only answer is to talk about their feelings.

Baggingarea

So are you prepared to discuss and engage?

Maybe with a genuine open mind rather than the censuring one you started the thread with.

Feel this one is apt too.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves

Just out of interest, I would like to know how transitioned males have been thrown to the wolves? Did we get a good clear example?

I would have said in some instances, transitioned females are thrown to the wolves, but I have seen little evidence of transitioned males being thrown to the wolves.

They actually seem very protected in many ways. Including under the crime/non-crime reporting. And the clear bias that exists on social media platforms that dictate that compelled language that harms females is to be amplified at all times.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves.

My eyes were rolling so much after the implication that Thomas (the most obvious recent example) was the one being mistreated in that scenario that I missed the latter part.

If the OP is genuinely interested in women’s opinions, she’ll stay and read, despite having her arse handed to her when posting at first. I know I did.

Whether you feel defensive, or that you are not being given the benefit of the doubt, is not relevant to any point you are trying to make.
Write clearly with well-defined arguments and there will be no need to give you the benefit of the doubt because there will be no doubt about what you are saying.

I get the sense that you prioritise feelings and emotions over clear and logical debate. That just won't cut it when women's right and protections are at stake.
Are you the type of person that hates arguments and wants to make peace? Sometimes peace is not achieved by trying to find a 'middle-ground', no matter how emotionally appealing that might sound.

Yes, stifling debate is not healthy, so please do debate - that means with facts and logic, not appeals to emotion.

Anyway, you’re in luck. Every thought you’ve expressed is transactivist, so nobody anywhere will call you a t*rf.

They would though, because she expressed extremely mild support for third spaces, and a vague nod towards fair sports and "having a conversation".

“Mean girls” is a sexist trope, just as a starting point. Not a particularly good one, on a feminism forum.

selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

We are continually asked to prove that allowing males into women’s spaces is harmful. This is despite the fact that they were moved in without anyone asking for consent, or considering the impact. Any figures that might have been available, had police recorded sex as well as “gender identity” rather than dropping sex in favour of GI, then perhaps we could have given figures. Since the figures have deliberately been obscured (presumably because they would show that transitioning doesn’t affect male behaviour patterns) we are left with pointing out individual cases.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

Do you understand why women are protective of their rights? It doesn’t sound like it. Women’s rights are very recently given, and now under threat of being removed, yet you are expecting us to be empathetic to those who are working hard to remove them?

If there was any sign at all that transactivists recognised the threat to women’s rights and were willing to look for ways forward which did not erode women’s rights, then perhaps there could be a way forward. Instead we are met with the outright lie that women’s rights will not be affected. Treating us like idiots isn’t going to work, because we’re not idiots.

And you have entirely underestimated the intensity of the anger women feel against Thomas, who has ruined the final year at university of many, many young women in a way that will make them feel small and humiliated for many years to come, and has exposed a number of them to an uncovered penis in their changing room. I realise those in charge should have prevented Thomas from the humiliation of demonstrating selfish behaviour to thousands of people, but if you think women should be polite in the face of that selfishness, then I think you are very unreasonable.

Anyway, you’re in luck. Every thought you’ve expressed is transactivist, so nobody anywhere will call you a t*rf.

If it helps OP, I don't think your views align with women's who are routinely called terfs.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but

And there's the 'but'.

You can tell a lot about who is prioritised by the location of the 'but' in someone's opinions.

This

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

Tell you what, drop the slurs and the shaming and maybe we can all move forward and have a discussion. Not sure quite why you thought writing an opening post that follows the usual shaming that happens on this board would get a positive reaction, but maybe you have not read much on here before.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

And women have been attempting to discuss this now for over a decade. You must realise that 'nodebate' was a tactic used by extreme trans activists who were not interested in having the discussion. There has only been lip service to opening debate, there is absolutely no chance.

A transitioned male academic was up for an actual debate with two feminists (two separate debates) and pulled out due to pressure from their community. That first debate was to happen this week, by the way, this is not 'old news'.

A junior psychiatric conference was due to be held over the last couple of weeks where the organisers invited a wide range of views to be presented. Extreme trans activists and a trans lobby group reacted so badly that the organisers had to cancel at the last minute.

They were reported using the whistleblower process for transphobia for having Helen Joyce and Transgender Trend present. Also clinician David Bell. The event also would have allowed Dr Hilary Cass to present her interim adolescent trans health findings which basically pointed out how bad the UK GIDS is at the moment.

Again. That was just over the last week or so.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

You probably then missed the transitioned males online continually declaring that they should have exemptions for safeguarding. How should that argument go in your view?

Because I can assure you, because I have had those conversations, your way doesn't work at all. Few people are prepared to have the discussion. By the way, there are transitioned males and females who also fully supported safeguards for children and females to remain strong and to not be lowered.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

It is a remnant of the 'no debate' era. There are also many powerful activist voices that have silenced athletes from voicing their opinion. The UK Sports Council noted this in their report. They stated that many females felt they could not discuss this without losing their positions / sponsorship. Because the lobby groups got their first and set the tone.

Even last month it became clear that the women on Thomas' swim team had to obey the directives set out in their NDAs or face penalties. Those penalties obviously were off the team and maybe losing scholarships and maybe expulsion from their university.

Which side does that? You are accusing women of 'both sides'? There is no 'both sides'. There is a huge power differential that you may not have become informed enough to see.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Sure. But in the meantime, communal changing rooms are the only option for many.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

You are not really understanding the power differential here at all. And we absolutely know that trans people face discrimination and prejudice too. But it is also not a problem for women to fix. And certainly not at our own detriment.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

Fuck off with this.

And no one on this board 'stifles' debate.

What we don't take too is emotionally manipulative posts (not saying you have down this), posts that fall into using tropes to either argue or refute points of view and particularly when those tropes lack any evidence or even robust critical thinking. If your point of view cannot survive being dissected and discussed then it is one that is not build on solid research or foundations.

Most posters who claim being 'stifled' have nothing but that to offer but will use copious amounts of shaming tactics, slurs and derogation. But the reality is, they have nothing else to contribute. And when they realise that, it makes them very uncomfortable and they flounce. Often they were only here to deliver a one line slur anyway.

Stay and discuss or go and read up on the many threads here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

this is a good place to start and you can make up your own mind.

Try again

Maybe op needs to know. www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.makeameme.org%2Fcreated%2Fon-wednesdays-we-viv3og.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmakeameme.org%2Fmeme%2Fon-wednesdays-we-viv3og&tbnid=z3hqHhYvNdaHnM&vet=12ahUKEwjdkJnHyu72AhWFE2MBHS3DA80QMygAegUIARCqAQ..i&docid=pXnVv0qFVHVvNM&w=600&h=338&q=mean%20girls%20memes%20wednesdays&hl=en-gb&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwjdkJnHyu72AhWFE2MBHS3DA80QMygAegUIARCqAQ

The use of male crime statistics to defend women's spaces is not an accusation that all transwoman are criminals. The crime statistics show that men commit violence and sexual crime at much higher rates than women, hence safe spaces away from men have traditionally been provided for women. By redefining womens spaces to include some men they become open to any men, and it doesn't take a huge amount thought to release that the two groups of men that will be most eager to access female spaces and therefore vulnerable women are 1) men who believe themselves to be women and 2) men who wish to harm harm women. Even if in this Venn diagram there is no over lap of circles and transwoman don't commit any crime (but the statistics show that this isn't the case, but for the sake of argument let say TW don't commit typically male crimes) do we tell the difference between men in group one and men in group two? Once you say some men are allowed to enter women's spaces you are opening those spaces to any man and that is wear the danger lies.

I've been waiting to use this meme for a while. Seems like it fits.

Baggingarea

I can't presume to know whether the people you have encountered are bullies but if you had been following developments in this "no debate" for a few years you would understand why women are absolutely furious. We have been subjected to threats, abuse and physical violence for having the temerity to campaign for our rights and for refusing to be the human shields for males who are vulnerable to abuse and violence from other males. We do not think it's OK to increase the risks to ourselves to protect vulnerable males.

I found this board about 5 years ago, I know transwomen so I was initially confused about why there was suddenly so much tension between the two groups and I thought maybe the women here could express themselves more tactfully and in a less inflammatory way. I did not say so at the time but I lurked and I learned. I understand now that there is no compromising with the trans lobby, it's total capitulation at our expense or nothing. There are no words we can use which will appease them unless it's the ones they dictate to us which means sacrificing the words we use to describe female experiences in a meaningful way. I have been shocked at the violence and abuse women have been subjected to by people who have faced almost no consequences for their actions. I am now of the opinion that clear and unambiguous language is essential in preventing womens rights being trampled all over, I will not apologise for using correct terms to indicate someone sex.

In short I am raging and now as terfy as fuck and I'm not even a little bit sorry.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point I am a woman, not a cis woman, just a woman with a vagina. I'm not looking for any criminals to prove a point?

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this. If males didn't want to pretend they are female this wouldn't be an issue.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women? We did have - males and females - males pretending to be females changed this.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too. So why do I have to suffer?

Ah, I haven't seen that collection of 10 tweets before.

I've never got to the bottom of the terfisaslur page. As you say, there are thousands and thousands of examples.

And there seem so little consequences for that behaviour. Did the student who was posting gun threats (whose University initially backed his behaviour) ever receive any sort of disciplinary action? Twitter seems to have defended a tweet saying that the person was going to kick a woman down a set of stairs to see how often they bounced. JKR has received enough rape and death threats to 'paper her house'. These sort of threats seem to be normalised and acceptable because the (mostly) women expressing them have 'the wrong views'.