Gender argument - caught in the middle

Maybe Thomas was wearing mascara??

[quote Cayeli]@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?[/quote]
But he has long hair and is in a womans' swimsuit?

What other 'standards of femininity' could be being shown in the photographs?

I will probably get this post deleted for expressing an opinion.

This is a forum for opinions! Express as many as you want! It is good for the soul to be heard.

If any man wants to become female, fine, but he should also get his bits removed and become a eunuch, then I would have no objection at all to changing in the same space.

I am glad that you feel that you have no issues about sharing. That still leaves the issue that women shouldn’t be giving away others protections. But I am sure you realise that.

Emasculation I’m sure would reduce the number wanting to become trans dramatically.

You could be right on the number. But as Eresh says it is rather cruel to insist that a person goes through such extreme surgery and it doesn’t actually provide a solution. A male having such surgery still retains all the strength and other physical advantages. They also can usually reliably be perceived as male, so still cause significant distress to some women and children.

For years No Debate was the policy of gender extremists who had taken over taxpayer funded organisations like Stonewall. This suited them at first because their arguments do not stand up to scrutiny. Neither are they very skilled at debate since for years they've got away with simply making assertions to which people cannot respond without threats and accusations of bigotry. More recently TRAs have seemed to soften their approach and there is more talk about discussions and middle ground. I hope you'll forgive me for thinking this is because they can see they are losing the general public - and not some new found love of free speech.

I would have no objection at all to changing in the same space.

Not a solution I am afraid. They would retain their male strength and physique. Traumatising for victims of men's violence and still pose a physical risk to women.

It's also a dodgy moral area to demand people have extreme surgery for entry into female spaces.

It's very simple.
No men in female spaces. Ever.
No caveats.
No exceptions.
No hypothetical.

Any 'rules' you make can be exploited.

Cayeli

Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

You are rather mistaken but I suspect you understand that. You have your own agenda to push here.

No. Pictures of Lia Thomas are being presented as clear evidence of the visible advantages that Thomas has due to their male puberty. Height, shoulder span, hip configuration, hand and feet size are all there. Visible indicators as to just a very few of the physical advantages Thomas has had.

This is a similar tactic that OP is trying to use. The old, you are allowed to disagree but you can never use specific examples to highlight or clarify your case tactic.

We have seen this evidenced over and over.

Extreme trans activist: that is not true!

Feminist: here is a clear indisputable example.

Activist: how mean/phobic/[insert silencing label here]

That was why watching Maya Forstater’s tribunal was really very enlightening. Because each of those witnesses believed there was absolutely no way that Maya, or any feminist, could have a conversation or make a statement that was not deemed offensive. And that the offense of those people who found Maya’s statements offensive were always prioritised above Maya’s perceived offense. Yet, most of those witnesses also stated that Maya also had a point. And the rights for females should be allowed to be discussed. … just as they then stated there was no language that could be used to discuss them without causing offense.

And the circle went around and around.

So. No. I don’t give a flying fuck about judging Thomas’ ‘femininity’. Photos are used as evidence of male pubertal advantages. You are simply attempting to silence discussion to suit your own political agenda.

I will probably get this post deleted for expressing an opinion.

If any man wants to become female, fine, but he should also get his bits removed and become a eunuch, then I would have no objection at all to changing in the same space.

Emasculation I’m sure would reduce the number wanting to become trans dramatically.

Thomas' photo is being posted to demonstrate the characteristics of a male body.

Whether you think Thomas is being shown as masculine because of body type or feminine because of confirming to feminine presentation stereotypes (long hair, costume) is down to you.
Like nearly everyone on the planet , an argument could be made for them being a mixture of both masculine and feminine aspects, depending on how you
choose to define them.

What sex you are has nothing to do with cultural interpretations of what is masculine or feminine. Unless you are using "feminine" in a medical sense, when it more often refers to body type?

‘Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?’

Sometimes a picture says things better than a thousand words.

Lia is not a woman and shouldn't be competing against women.

if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

oh don't be silly.

It is not the changing room for people of either sex who are performing femininity to a set degree, it's the changing room for people of the female sex.

Female people are entitled to spaces away from male people for their own needs and comfort. Their right to do so should not be predicated on whether or not male people agree. Male people feeling entitled to make the call on this and permit it only if it doesn't prevent male people having everything they want first are demonstrating exactly why in 2022 it is more important than ever that females have gatekept spaces in law. Males are not going to #bekind voluntarily.

if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

Thomas is a male person. Standards of femininity don't apply.

‘Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?’

It’s not about femininity. The images just show that Thomas is male, and that’s the whole debate done.

No ones trying to impose standards of femininity. We’re trying to impose the objective reality of sex.

www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/exclusive-upenn-philly-da-ignore-complaints-about-lia-thomass-male-nudity-in-the-womens-locker-room?_amp=true

Do you think it's ok for Thomas to walk around with their cock out in an open changing room?
Because I'm not interested in wether Thomas wants to wear a dress.
I'm interested in whether Thomas has an unfair physical advantage over the women they are competing against and whether or not these women are distressed by seeing male genitalia in their changing room. Thomas is attracted to women by the way. So for all intents and purposes, a straight man has transitioned and is now identifying as a transwoman and has access to a changing room where young women are getting changed.

[quote Cayeli]@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?[/quote]
Tell me, do you think that Thomas should be allowed to dress and be naked in an open changing room with my 14 year old daughter?

[quote Cayeli]@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?[/quote]
Standards of femininity?
Thomas is a biological male with long hair. Why restrict the standards of masculinity so that a male who wishes to dress in a stereotypical feminine way is suddenly not a male anymore?

There is a thread called "break it down for me." Which would be a good place to go first before accusing the women defending vulnerable women and childrens rights of being mean girls.

We aren't girls.
We are women, and many of us have daughters.

Some of us are rape and domestic abuse survivors. Some of us are even married to other survivors of sexual abuse. We are under no illusions that predatory men will use any and all loopholes to gain access to vulnerable women and children.

I have no interest in pandering to the demands of mens rights activists which is what transactivists are, however much they save flags and say be kind - sending death and rape threats and hounding women out of their job says enough.

I have one priority and that is the safety of my autistic daughter who has already been bullied horrible by a group of transactivist girls at her school. They were telling her she was a boy and showing her extreme anime porn. She was horrified and still is traumatised.

Those were actual mean girls.

@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

Just out of interest, I would like to know how transitioned males have been thrown to the wolves? Did we get a good clear example?

I would have said in some instances, transitioned females are thrown to the wolves, but I have seen little evidence of transitioned males being thrown to the wolves.

I believe the clear example given was Thomas, presumably because the “mean girlz” pointed out the unfairness at length and didn’t hold their punches, as we should only criticize those who made the rules, and not Thomas, despite Thomas being an adult with agency, who could have chosen one of three possible unselfish and honorable pathways:

1. Delaying transition, as Isaac Henig did
2. Continuing to compete in the appropriate class despite transitioning, or
3. Choosing to forgo racing in order to pursue the personal desire to transition.

Being politely handed your arse on mumsnet is a walk in the park compared to what you would get if you said the above on twitter. Would be interested in seeing the results if you did that, OP.

It would indeed but I would recommend the OP take steps to protect her anonymity online before she posts anything mildly GC on Twitter. She might be lucky and just get told to die in a grease fire or she could receive multiple rape and death threats (don't worry it's normal for GC women on social media, only a few have actually been attacked IRL) or she might find someone tries to dox her (much more worrying) and report her to her employer.

Remind me how many GC women behave like that towards TRA's?

The thing is, that most GC posters here, will have started off with a "be kind", find the compromise, accept differences, mutual respect and understanding viewpoint. And then discovered that there is no willingness to "be kind" from the other side, no boundary that will be tolerated, nothing other than complete acceptance without discussion.

OP's view that transwomen are transwomen and that sporting bodies should set some guidelines around where it may be unfair to compete against natal females would see OP branded as transphobic and screamed at to "repent motherfucker".

Being politely handed your arse on mumsnet is a walk in the park compared to what you would get if you said the above on twitter. Would be interested in seeing the results if you did that, OP.