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Original poster

The ethics of keeping an adult in a child's body - BMJ

36 replies

Clymene · 29/03/2022 17:23

This is a paper about a (thankfully) hypothetical young woman who has identified as non binary since the age of 5 and began puberty blockers at 11. At 18, she has decided she wants to stay on them to reflect her non binary identity. The authors argue that she has capacity to make that decision despite the fact that her brain will not have fully developed, because we don't actually know for certain that there will be harm as the studies haven't been done. And besides, her psychological well being of being kept in a state of perpetual prepubescence is more important.

https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/11/743

Just who will benefit from adult women who look and think like children? It's certainly a bit of a mystery Hmm

OP posts:
Velvian · 29/03/2022 18:13

As the mum of a DD that likes 'boys' stuff and clothes, I find this very worrying. To a certain extent all children are 'non binary' until they been hobbled by gender stereotypes and expectations.

I have always allowed my DD to pick what she likes and told her that she is allowed to like what she likes.

The whole idea of gender as somehow essential and sex as optional is so repressive to everyone that takes issue with gender stereotypes.

FrancescaContini · 29/03/2022 18:11

It’s grotesque.

FrancescaContini · 29/03/2022 18:09

@DomesticatedZombie

identified as non binary since the age of 5

Hmm

WTAF does this MEAN?? HmmConfused
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/03/2022 18:05

Looking at the Twitter altmetrics, it's not at all obvious that many people see this as a hypothetical case study.

bmj.altmetric.com/details/86624426/twitter

I'm linking to d'Angelo's exploration of Phoenix as I found it helpful.

With its narrow focus on gender identity as concrete, the clinicians and ethicists effectively ignore or even erase the complexity of Phoenix’s lived history and the context within their gender distress is constituted. The paper is striking for the absence of any sense of Phoenix, the person, even for a hypothetical case. Phoenix has effectively been reduced to a diagnosis or a gender identity to be treated. The reification of Phoenix’s non-binary identity effectively erases all personal meaning, the impact of the relational context and the sociopolitical surround. It constitutes a decontextualisation and dehumanisation, which is arguably profoundly unethical.
…
From a perspective that considers the whole person in context, ongoing puberty blockade (OPD) constitutes a therapeutic abandonment. While gender-affirming medical intervention aspires to help the individual actualise their true self, it potentially forecloses authentic self-discovery if not preceded by a thoroughgoing psychological exploration. Hopefully, Phoenix will discover answers to the question ‘Who is Phoenix?’ that are more complex than ‘non-binary’. Armed with deeper selfawareness, Phoenix will then be in the best position to decide whether OPD will indeed be liberating, or whether it will deprive Phoenix of true growth and freedom.

jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/early/2020/10/19/medethics-2020-106822.full.pdf

IaltagDhubh · 29/03/2022 17:55

How can anyone consent to that? No one can possibly know what long term effects that will have on her body.

tabbycatstripy · 29/03/2022 17:55

‘They seem to say that her determination that she will find puberty very distressing is enough to just go along with what she asks for.’

But that doesn’t take into account ANY of the (in my view serious) considerations as to the ethics of creating a class of child-adults.

“Your honour, I thought she was 25.”

“She looks ten.”

“Yessir, but puberty blockers...”

2Rebecca · 29/03/2022 17:52

This reply to this 2020 Journal of medical ethics article (it's the BMJ group of journals the 2020 Phoenix article was not in the BMJ) raises pertinent points on why Phoenix doesn't want an adult sexuality jme.bmj.com/content/46/11/753

jkrfan · 29/03/2022 17:51

@DomesticatedZombie

identified as non binary since the age of 5

Hmm

I agree DomesticatedZombie. Non binary? I doubt any 5 year olds even know the meaning of that. Such a child should never be given puberty blockers...their actual body will take its natural course and they can 'present' how they see fit. Anything else is child abuse.
Original poster
Clymene · 29/03/2022 17:51

@tabbycatstripy

Do they give consideration to their ethical position beyond the other person’s capacity for consent? Do think they can do medical experiments on people as long as they have consent?

(But I didn’t think ‘non-binary’ meant ‘child’ anyway?)

They seem to say that her determination that she will find puberty very distressing is enough to just go along with what she asks for.

Rather than suggesting therapy or some other kind of mental health support.

A woman trapped in prepubescence, able to consent but not enjoy sex, and unable to conceive. They seem to think whether she desires sex will mean she is able to control whether she has it or not. I think that she will be under enormous pressure to enter into sexual relationships and porn. Lots of porn.

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 29/03/2022 17:37

identified as non binary since the age of 5

Hmm
tabbycatstripy · 29/03/2022 17:28

Do they give consideration to their ethical position beyond the other person’s capacity for consent? Do think they can do medical experiments on people as long as they have consent?

(But I didn’t think ‘non-binary’ meant ‘child’ anyway?)