What should a politician say re: TWAW

Walkingtheplank · 2022-03-29T14:17:13+00:00

Lots of clips of politicians stumbling over the simple question of What is a woman or Is a transwoman a woman. It's like they're not prepared. What do you think they should say? Even if they think it, they can't just say 'Adult Human Female' or 'No' to those questions because they'd probably get an aggressive follow up question. How can they say the above without offending the very vocal transactivists? Is it possible? I'm not sure it is.

Photinia · 30/03/2022 13:42

Think I just got deleted for citing examples of unacceptable descriptions of trans people and of women. Ho hum.

Point was: anger is just fine, pithy slogans have their place, but PM & LOTO using this issue as an excuse to trade insults (they don't actually care) isn't helpful.

And I agree Starmer has put himself in this position by failing to articulate a clear policy.

ExMachinaDeus · 30/03/2022 13:31

Transwomen are transwomen. And that's OK.

teawamutu · 30/03/2022 13:09

@PacificState

They could say 'you know, the reason you're all asking us this question is because we politicians, as a group, have been trying to avoid talking about this issue as much as possible. We took our eye off the ball and didn't pay attention. That stops now. There's a serious debate taking place now about how we ensure trans people and women all feel safe, respected and heard, and I personally am going to go all-out to take that debate seriously. So, in terms of your original question: most people think a woman is an extremely straightforward concept - that it's someone of the female sex, and that trans women who have lived long and consistently as women are also to be accepted as such in social and legal situations. But the public knows that this is really a debate about safety and fairness, not definitions, and we've ended up arguing about definitions because politicians of all parties have failed to properly engage with the conversation the public has been having.'

I will vote for the first person who says this, regardless of the colour of their rosette.

Photinia · 30/03/2022 12:45

This reply has been deleted

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Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 30/03/2022 12:12

@Photinia

It feels like Johnson is using Starmer's concern for trans individuals to mock him (and by extension to mock the trans individuals), rather than saying great that you are concerned but this other perspective is also valid and important.

It's not great that Kier is not concerned about women though which is the value he has demonstrated. No-one should have to point out to the leader of the opposition that 51% of the population also have needs and rights. It's not great that he's only concerned about men.

WouldBeGood · 30/03/2022 11:53

I have no illusions about Johnson’s motives. But pathetic as it may be, I’m pleased that he’s taken this up

Photinia · 30/03/2022 11:39

It feels like Johnson is using Starmer's concern for trans individuals to mock him (and by extension to mock the trans individuals), rather than saying great that you are concerned but this other perspective is also valid and important.

Photinia · 30/03/2022 11:35

I'm glad it's getting air time, but less glad that it's split along party lines. That lends itself to sound bites and lack of nuance ("TERFS hate trans" is easier than "radical feminists are concerned that broadening the definition of women could have unconsidered consequences for women's safety, dignity and equity"), and that it becomes bound up with so much else and, as pointed out, leaves so many of us politically homeless.

I'd really rather prefer to hear a range of voices on this issue from different political starting points.

WouldBeGood · 30/03/2022 11:24

I’m really pleased this seems to be gaining traction as a political matter, to be honest. Johnson sees the advantage..?

Photinia · 30/03/2022 11:12

From the politico newsletter - apparently last night...

Johnson began his speech with this opener: “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.” Expect plenty more of that as we gear up for the next election.

It all seems to be starting to get party political.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/03/2022 10:56

Hmmm it's interesting though. Wes is smart and he wants to be leader, he understands this issue better than Keir does, he's 100% Stonewall, but it sounds to me like he's carving out a space here in terms of biological sex and common meanings on the one hand, plus respect/gender (not sex) identity on the other hand. Most activists won't allow you to insert a cigarette paper between those two things. Just in terms of 'how do you answer this question' he's done very well I think.

Which is why he's getting flak for it. Question anything and you question it all.

Thewindwhispers · 30/03/2022 10:52

@Nightlystroll

Why don't they just say what they really think? They're grown ups in power. As long as they're respectful to both sides, the majority of the electorate will be supportive. It would be refreshing to hear what politicians really think instead of what they are told you say.

This! They’re so desperately trying to work out what people want to hear, they’ve forgotten that they’re supposed to be leaders. Why don’t they tell us what they think?!

Anyway, what they should say is that transwomen are men who have chosen to present as women, and thet transwomen should be treated with respect and kindness, but that doesn’t mean they will always get everything they want, particularly where their desires conflict with women’s rights and children’s safeguarding.

bellinisurge · 30/03/2022 10:42

What Streeting is not saying out loud is "Neovagina is a vagina; neopenis is a penis. Ladydique is a vagina. A transwomen's penis is like a "strap on" so they are lesbians."

PacificState · 30/03/2022 10:35

Hmmm it's interesting though. Wes is smart and he wants to be leader, he understands this issue better than Keir does, he's 100% Stonewall, but it sounds to me like he's carving out a space here in terms of biological sex and common meanings on the one hand, plus respect/gender (not sex) identity on the other hand. Most activists won't allow you to insert a cigarette paper between those two things. Just in terms of 'how do you answer this question' he's done very well I think.

DomesticatedZombie · 30/03/2022 10:28

there it goes again ... it's no different to Keir's 'a woman is an adult human female and a transwoman is a woman'

DomesticatedZombie · 30/03/2022 10:27

Hmm ... waiting for the 'but' there, though.

twitter.com/talkradio/status/1509088010771570688

'that doesn't mean by the way that there aren't people who transitioned to other genders'

PacificState · 30/03/2022 10:21

Wes Streeting on Talk Radio this morning saying 'men have penises and women have vaginas', apparently. Crikey Wes. (Beginning to find this all a bit grim, but fair play to him.)

bellinisurge · 30/03/2022 07:07

@DontLikeCrumpets they are certainly being hijacked by them to the point where you don't hear the one in several thousand people who "just wants to live their life", you hear the MRA who wants you to suck their "girl dick". How can Starmer etc pretend those voices aren't shouting the loudest.

DontLikeCrumpets · 30/03/2022 01:12

They should say TWAMRA as in "transwomen are Men's Rights Activists"

youvegottenminuteslynn · 30/03/2022 00:21

@RestingPandaFace

They should say that TWATW who have very specific social and health needs which are different (note different not less than) to those of women, there should be a range of policy interventions designed to safeguard and protect TW that do not come at the expense of women and girls access to single sex spaces and services.

This would absolutely have my vote.

bellinisurge · 29/03/2022 21:08

Trans people want validation. Code for: join in my delusion or you are a bigot. TWATW TMATM doesn't give that.

DoubleYouOhEmAyEn · 29/03/2022 20:58

I fail to understand what's wrong with TWATW. What's wrong with being a transwoman that you need to pretend you're not one?

Cuck00soup · 29/03/2022 20:55

[quote PacificState]Thanks tabby. I missed my calling as a SPAD 😂

Interesting piece by Isabel Hardman on this www.spectator.co.uk/article/labour-is-falling-into-the-tim-farron-trap-on-sex-and-gender[/quote]

Thanks for the link. She makes a good point.

Helleofabore · 29/03/2022 20:49

@WeeBisom

My partner is involved in Labour Party politics (poor thing) and he knows my thoughts on this issue. I asked him why Labour has adopted this strange strategy. The perception from within his local Labour group is that most members of the public are ignorant about or don’t care about this issue, whereas a large continent of young people and trans activists care about this issue very much. Labour don’t want to alienate the young people / trans activists, so have to be very careful in what they say. But Labour also realise the law is in place to protect women’s rights so have to accommodate that too. I asked him if the perception among Labour members was that women were angry about this, and he said “no”. The perception is that most women support trans rights or don’t care, and Labour isn’t seriously worried about losing female voters on this issue.

If that’s the case I wonder why Labour politicians appear to be treading so delicately round this topic. Why not say “yes trans women are women and of course women can have penises?” But I also think if this report is true (and it only pertains to his local branch and Labour Facebook group) then Labour have seriously underestimated how pissed off women have become.

Wee it will be great if you can keep us informed as to any changes here.

The huge issue they are overlooking is the more they screw around on mainstream media, on tv and radio, the more this is getting known.

I have had friends tell me this month that they finally understood what I was referring to over the past year or so. I have told my elderly neighbour just what M&S have done with changing rooms and she is absolutely furious.

If labour honestly believe that fucking about on the media with this is not having an impact, they are delusional idiots who are believing the very advisors who are telling them this is the vote winner.

There is quite a bit of time left until the next election, they obviously are counting on people remaining ignorant. So they should STFU in the media because they are causing conversations to be had that never were before.

More fool them. Fuckwits.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/03/2022 20:37

@WouldBeGood

I things would be much better if they were worried about offending women, and therefore gave factually correct answers, such as adult human female.

Apparently, it's the zeitgeist to question whether we want responses grounded in reality rather than our preferences or immersive fictions.

BBC chair suggests public may overstate appetite for impartial news
…
Richard Sharp said his organisation is facing the joint challenges of stopping audiences drifting away to more partisan news outlets, while at the same time warning that the BBC’s ability to provide accurate information is under threat because of funding cuts.

“Impartial news may be too unprofitable to do properly,” Sharp said at a panel event organised by the Social Market Foundation thinktank, suggesting this will lead commercial news organisations to increasingly seek more partisan stances.

He said the reality of what people actually click on or watch increasingly leans towards provocative and sensational content, making it harder for the BBC to judge whether its output is connecting with audiences.

www.theguardian.com/media/2022/mar/29/99-say-they-wash-their-hands-bbc-chair-questions-appetite-for-impartial-news