Green Party - can it be led to see sense on its policies towards women

• while I disagree with much of what 'Deep Green Resistance' say, I find them really useful as exactly that - a group that continues to question the dominant narratives, suggest radical alternatives, keep rattling the cages of those in power.

Yes, the pushing of 'childcare' as any kind of a solution for our 'development' obsessed social structures is a swerve that misses the point.

The Greens will only ever be a pressure group, really, so they are free to explore more radical policies to at least act as a counter balance to rampant neo-liberal ideology.

They've also changed their focus politically to a much more typical big state socialist kind of politics, whereas when they started they drew inspiration from thinkers like E.R. Schumacher. One issue that stood out for me was that unlike the socialists, our Greens didn't have a reflexive call for state run/paid daycare - they were more inclined to ask, why do both parents find they need to work? Which actually fits in with environmental concerns as well, because it relates to how we see productivity in the economy.

If you said anything like that now they'd look at you as if you were crazy, they wouldn't understand the objection. There's not only a lack of serious science, there's no deep look at the social structures that are intertwined with over-consumption. They are much too caught up in identity politics as the frame for environmental issues for all that.

I think at base the issue is whether you think it's acceptable that males can 'identify' as females.

Trans rights supporters often say that any male who 'feels' like a woman is de facto a woman. Feminists say that this presents issues.

Re the Green Party: at the recent conference a motion was proposed to expel any members who had signed the declaration on women's sex based rights. You can read it for yourself and judge for yourself whether you think this is a reasonable suggestion:

'On the re-affirmation of women’s sex-based rights, including women’s rights to physical and reproductive integrity, and the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women and girls that result from the replacement of the category of sex with that of ‘gender identity’, and from ‘surrogate’ motherhood and related practices.'

womensdeclaration.com/en/declaration-womens-sex-based-rights-full-text/

Hooray!

It's quite a large subject encompassing many issues.

I've not read it, but lots of people recommend Helen Joyce's book 'trans'. There's also Kathleen Stock's 'Material Girls'.

Some other suggestions here:

sex-matters.org/bookshelf/

The problem in a nutshell is that women, as a 'minority' in the sense that they face structural inequalities, have certain protections in law. These are enshrined in the Equality Act. (Nine protected characteristics; sex is one).

The 'Gender Recognition Act' was introduced subsequently and suggests that males can effectively become female. This is where the 'transwomen are women' slogan comes into play.

Feminists believe that allowing males to identify into femalehood risks sweeping away women's rights that are protected in law.

If anyone can 'identify' as a woman, and there is no clear definition of woman, then how can we protect our rights?

This can be illustrated by situations like the males identifying as women to get the places reserved for women in affirmative action:

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/mexico-elections-fake-transgender-candidates-disqualified

There are also some risks presented by males being increasingly able to access female spaces.

For example, a male identified as a female and was placed on a female ward in hospital. He raped another patient, who was then told by the NHS that the rape couldn't have happened because 'there were no men present'.

Males are being place in women's prisons. There have been sexual assaults by males in women's prisons.

Most feminists really don't care how anyone 'identifies', so long as they don't impinge on women's rights to privacy, dignity, and equity.

In Scotland the leadership are clear that only gender believers are welcome in the party.

Thanks Zombie! I'm the last on your list.

Reluctant - this may be of use.

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

The Greens don't have any one view. There is a small cohort of very committed people dedicated to trans rights. There is a small cohort of feminists. There is a larger cohort of people who are confused. There is an even larger cohort of people who have no idea what is going on, and are in the party to support environmental policies.

I'm by no means an evangelist on political issues, but I just would like to say, though, that if all the people who posted that they are waiting for the Greens to return to sense joined the party, and took part in conference, and voted in the policies that are supported/proposed by feminists and based on evidence-supported scientific views etc, we'd be sorted. I think it's at a tipping point and I am looking forward to the next conference.

Ask not what the party can do for you, etc.

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain to me in a 'from the beginning' kind of way, what this issue about sex / gender is. I always feel like I missed the beginning of the conversation with it, and now I don't know what's going on! Is there something I can read? What's the greens view?

Mangy I do agree - I think there need to be far more robust conversations about things like nuclear power, for example.

I really hope the Greens can return to reality based politics, so many of use would love them to go back to caring about climate change. Then I might vote for them.

I used to be a member of the Greens in Canada. They have lots the plot on women's issues as well. But I would say, and I see this in the US Greens too, not sure about the UK - they can be dodgy on evidence based science in quite a few areas. GMOs are an example. Now, I don't support GMOs overall, mainly for reasons around economics and ecosystem protection, but the amount of junk science about GMOs in party discussions was trough the roof. Also often very unrealistic expectations about technology saving us from changing our standard of living, around renewable energy. and so on.

Green parties have changed a lot since they started to develop in the 70s, including in terms of political emphasis.

Good to see feminist voices coming through in the Green Party. I hope the Scottish Greens take note, as unlikely as that seems.

Yes, I agree, mudge. I think a keen desire to be 'fair' to everybody has perhaps left the party open to manipulation by people who do not have good intentions.

I’d vote for them if they even went so far as to say, ‘Two different views exist here on whether we should define men and women by gender or by sex. As a party, we tolerate either view and will ensure that safe, appropriate facilities are provided that meet the needs of all, without shouting at worried people. Now let’s get back to defeating environmental degradation and climate change.’

I very very much doubt that the Greens will change any time soon. They live in echo chambers.

Didn't they first come up with the brilliant 'non-men' identity? I think that was what converted me into someone digging up more and more information on these questions as being called a non-man made me physically sick.

I'm watching this space too then
I would love to be able to support the greens

But to be successful at counteracting climate change they need to be driven by common sense , science and pragmatism- nothing like being driven by identity

Well, watch this space, Random. TBH if another swathe of feminists joined, the party could easily become one that championed women's rights as well as robust, evidence-based environmental policy. And given the history (I'm thinking back to the whole Challenor debacle, which does not, imo, seem to have been comprehensively face up to and dealt with) it may even be possible for the party to come out stronger, with far more rigorous safeguarding measures.

Another one hoping that they can sort it out. I have utterly given up on Labour thanks to this issue, and I would fall on the Greems like a starving person falls on food if they were to adopt a sensible, realistic position re women's sex-based rights.