what is the difference between trans ideology and male supremacy?

A skirt.

IMO feminism is the conscious and deliberate process of unlearning that socialisation, and replacing it with assertiveness. Thats why its so unpopular with men, and why women find it off putting or frightening.

And this is again, why for the female sex, it is bloody crucial that we do NOT stop talking about female rights and the clash with gender ideology in blunt terms regarding VAWG, DA/DV, abusive and toxic relationships, boundaries, consent, bodily autonomy, privacy and dignity, the voices and 'lived experience' unique to those members of the female sex, child protection and family court systems and all those problems, contact issues, wider family relationships when they all go horribly wrong....

for the female sex these are ALL pieces of the same jigsaw.

Five minutes on the AIBU, Chat and Relationships boards (or a five minute search for MiL threads will do it too) will show that there are always going to be female people who

• have an ingrained, trained belief that male people are more valuable than female people - and get their head pats and sense of purpose from being a male facilitator. (Penis portions, value in self sacrificing, male person may be a total abusive bastard who tried to throttle you but maybe he's depressed, go and give him a hug and tell him you're sorry your throat hurt his hands - I WISH I was kidding)

• Female people who have a grim kind of masochistic satisfaction or personal need met out of trying to bully other females into being doormats (explained on one relationship thread by one female as that having been bullied and made miserable for years by her MiL she was damned if other females were going to escape and be allowed to say no - largely it made her question her acceptance of her own abuse too much)

• female people who get a bit silly and sentimental and patronising over males that they perceive as vulnerable and like the feeling of mummying them

When you belong to a powerless group, you learn to grab your power where you can. You see all this plain as day in female politicians who have been allowed up the ranks to win at the game of Patriarchy by being good girls who make no scary noises and always virtue signal how very, very male centric and Naice they are. Sadly it means the massive majority of them are no bloody use nor ornament in representing the female sex.

Getting one group of women to completely demonise and dehumanise another group of women, and furthermore calling it “feminism”, was an absolute master stroke of MRA activism. If women were all on board with opposing the TRA agenda, it would be a very different picture we’d be looking at now. The age old divide and conquer. This is the patriarchy in action.

So true.

trans ideology doesn't promote strict adherence to gender roles.

It does nothing but adhere to gender roles. If you don't feel like you fit in one box, well, you must have to jam yourself in the other one.
As opposed to say, saying these boxes are bullshit, who cares.

The Stonewall mantra “acceptance without exception” used to sound innocent enough to me.

Then came a certain court case. A female prisoner who’d allegedly been assaulted in prison by a trans woman, requested that women should have the right not be locked up with trans women who’d been convicted of violent or sexual offences against women. She lost her case.

On Twitter, I saw a couple of masks slip as “feminist” trans activists welcomed the result. There was endless whataboutery, e.g. “what about male prison guards who sexually harass women?” and some deflection e.g. “it’s wrong to judge trans people by the actions of a few” (true, but that wasn’t the question). These two feminists just couldn’t bring themselves to say that a female victim of sexual assault should be prioritised above her male attacker. In fact, they wanted the opposite.

Wow! That only took 3 minutes!

Ovahere, did you turn round three times while chanting 'MRA, MRA, MRA' (alla Candyman) or is there a different spell?

Nobody mention B-rl-y...

And as if by magic…

Well, male supremacists assert that you only have to be in possession of a penis and testicles to control and dominate all those around you who don't have a penis and testicles. Thus just one person, who has a penis and testicles, in a women's toilet, is all it takes to frighten, crush, traumatise and utterly psychologically destroy all those women. It's wonderful, though, that there are so many women here at Mumsnet who don't hold to that view at all! :)

One of the biggest tells is that the Mumsnet feminism boards have been bereft of the old skool MRAs in recent years. There was a time they'd turn up frequently like clockwork to mansplain and tell us how horrid feminists are.

Where are they all now? It's almost like they've found something else to occupy their time...

Oh I know a joke about this!
The line between MRA and TRA is very thin. And it's drawn with eyeliner.

The difference? My guess would be that you don't tend to see feminists lining up to defend male supremacy.

and thats the thing that confuses me the most

It’s like they’ve performed a Jedi mind trick on themselves.

Think of Layla Moran and her “I can see into their souls” or whatever drivel it was she said.

They really have convinced themselves that some male people “are” actually women. And if you accept that first premise, then the rest makes sense, in a horribly nonsensical kind of way.

If you accept that, then yes, it does look like horrible bigoted meanness to “exclude” them from women’s spaces, and I can even see where they’re coming from with their awful racial segregation analogies, because in their befuddled minds we really are treating them as second class “women”, out of nothing but prejudice.

The problem is of course that there is no actual reason in the world to pretend they are actually women, when they’re not. When they are by definition excluded from the category “woman”. But the lib fems just can’t seem to get their heads round this very vital part of the equation. Can’t seem to recognise that the biggest piece of their intersectional puzzle is completely missing.

Even when they have to admit they can’t come up with a single working definition of “woman” that means anything at all, and includes these males, they just resort to Moran style nonsense, and accusations of meanness.

The emotional conviction that they are right, the sanctimonious, holier than thou posturing and virtue signalling, and projecting of every negative quality under the sun onto us - what is this mania? Is it just internalised misogyny gone really, really wrong? Is it denial as defence mechanism against the very real pain of acknowledging how bad misogyny still is? How we are still very much the second sex, the support humans?

I’ve seen it said that when people have a deep emotional investment in believing something, then no amount of reason will dissuade them from it. As long as their need to believe it is greater than their wish to be rational, then it doesn’t matter what arguments we come up with, they’re all just used against us to prove how bad we are.

For example, they say there’s no increased risk in allowing males into women’s spaces. We then provide numerous examples of biologically male people who are, or claim to be, trans being convicted of sexual offences - and it’s just “proof” of our “bigotry”. The fact we are aware of it is a crime in itself, a far greater crime than the ones these males committed, because it shows we went looking for evidence, or we’re “cherry picking”, and only bad people don’t believe that trans people are who they say they are.

Like the ducking stool: damned if we have the stats, damned if we don’t.

Getting one group of women to completely demonise and dehumanise another group of women, and furthermore calling it “feminism”, was an absolute master stroke of MRA activism. If women were all on board with opposing the TRA agenda, it would be a very different picture we’d be looking at now. The age old divide and conquer. This is the patriarchy in action.

I've stopped using the term TRA. They are just a subset of MRAs, along with incels and traditional sexist male supremacists; I don't see any practical difference. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...

The difference is that TRA has found a way to further male supremacist aims in a way which is so obfuscated, some people actually truly believe they are being progressive. It's much more dangerous as a result.

I'm no longer using the term TRA's because they're not, this is an MRA movement.

MRA/TRA/Incel are just different terms for the same woman despising movement.

And has been mentioned many times before, the rights that these MRA's demand are either ones which no other group is entitled to (changing birth certificates for example) or demanding rights which infringe on other group's rights, dignity and safety (demanding access to single sex spaces which they are not entitled to access due to their sex for example).

Oh, crosspost.

Do you find people listen when you offer alternative facts? I find they usually don't want to know, which makes me think the 'facts' are an excuse for their beliefs and behaviour, not a reason.
I dont care if women don't want single sex spaces. I dont think they should have the right to remove them from women that do, and they don't seem to have an answer for that beyond 'you're a bigot'.

VelvetChairGirl, the responses I have received from young lib fems always refer to the high trans homicide rate and high suicide risk.

Those are the stated reasons for placing them first. Actually, women in my own life use those, too.

That's why I pointed out how the high homicide rates are not applicable to transgender people in the UK or the US. A US study by a transgender researcher found that the rate at which the so-called cis people were murdered between 2010 and 2014 were actually higher than the rate at which trans people were murdered during the same time period.

Some places have written about the suicide question. The original data came from a very small non-representative study, and there is a dearth of studies which would look at suicide rates over longer periods, to see if medical transitioning reduces them or not.

What studies exist suggest that it does not. The argument often made is still that denying trans women access to every single female space will drive them to suicide.

So individuals with that level of stated despair are prioritised.