Sir Keir Starmer on women's rights, sport, and penises, in LBC interview

They are hopeless

When the phrase ‘we need to have an open, sensible discussion’ is trotted out, I just wish an interviewer would say ‘well, let’s have that discussion now, that’s what we are here for’, or even just ask ‘when?’

I suspect the advisors' cheat sheet currently looks a bit like:

• We don't know what a woman is (But a TW is definitely one)

• We're denying knowing what a woman is because if we tried to answer we'd have all the female voters yelling at us that we've just disappeared and erased them to please male people and what planet are we on, and we'd also be piled on by a political lobby whose behaviour when displeased can involve more than just yelling

• Shit we've painted ourselves into a total corner. Run away!

• Blame everybody (but don't go into what for, ffs, words are dangerous!) and keep saying that discussion is needed while never, never, never actually having one or facing any issues at all

• Shut eyes, cross fingers, hope desperately that somehow the electorate is stupid enough to decide we're the people to run the country and defend their rights despite all the above evidence.

An open discussion would be very very welcome.

Times article about this, close to 500 comments already:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/92c0d200-aeab-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=475b5f66a09e0df5114cd86a9aad66e0

I’d like to know when this ‘discussion’ is going to take place. So many politicians keep telling us they’d like an ‘open discussion’, and that they’d like to ‘take the heat out’ of the debate in order to discuss…so when are we going to have this ‘discussion’?

Should read trans not cis!! Obviously!!

Labour, and progressive political types generally, have adopted a worldview that sees human dignity as something that comes from validation of internalized identities, and social justice as equality of outcome in terms of these identities

Mangy I come from generations and generations of serious Labour supporters and party members. This is a relatively new thing. This certainly was not an issue at all in the last few decades. Labour has always stood for working men and women, their rights and equality for all - it has strived to break down the structures of classism and elitism, not successfully always, but to broaden opportunities regardless of your family name/money and connections. The identity politics is new.

The pp whom suggested Labour has been targeted and brainwashed into this ideology was correct in my view when you look at the last forty odd years. Labour has always represented ordinary people. That is not to say they can't support other groups, because of course they can and do, but not to the obvious detriment of other equally or more vulnerable groups.

The idea that Labour is welded to this issue needs to be challenged. It is not part of their fabric any more than anything else. It needs to pointed out over and over again the danger they are putting us in, and that we can not vote for this, ever.

Self ID is all very well as long as it does not put women and girls in danger or at a severe disadvantage i.e. sports. How difficult can it be to come to a conclusion that people can call themselves what they want, and be respected, but if you have a penis you can not access women only spaces on a whim. Provisions can be made for them so their rights and privacy to be respected, and this should be understood and respected by everyone, including cis women whom I am assuming are as appalled as anyone else when women are raped in supposedly safe spaces.

I know I have simplified, but really we should see some leadership on this, some plain speaking, some honesty. Anything else is a sell out as far as I am concerned and I am happy to challenge every single Labour MP on it. I will not shut up.

16 year old dd used to think it was funny to tell me she was pregnant

I eventually said to her that until i could say the word penis or vagina in her presence without her shrieking and running off i knew she wasn’t pregnant

I hope millions of votes do change. I really do.

This will be Labour's undoing. It's literally the only thing the Tories can get them on

Agree.

I spoiled my ballot over it in the last GE. I'd do the same again. It's not new and it's not going away.

I remember you and I getting a real thread kicking before the last GE @bellinisurge (I had a different mn nn then..) because we said we wouldn't vote labour (or green or lib dem) because of their stance on self ID....

I wonder if those people still think we are over reacting on this issue? 🤔

Leaving the EU used to be a niche issue that no one cared about.

This will be Labour's undoing. It's literally the only thing the Tories can get them on.

Just listened to him again. He said "all adult females are women". What about transmen? What about females who call themselves not non-binary. Obviously I think they are also women but I thought the schtick was that that aren't. Which is why we have to say cervix-havers and all that shit.
Anyone would think he gave a panicky response to pander to the prostate havers because they count and cervix havers don't.

When I was in primary school me and a friend kept laughing during sex ed at the word 'penis' and my teacher wrote my mum a very stern letter saying I had been taken out of lessons until I was mature enough to say the word without giggling. My mum found this hilarious. If I was a politician I wouldn't be able to talk about this topic without laughing. Maybe Keir was a particularly serious child?

Agree with almost everyone here, but mostly wonder why he's taken this stand and if there's any chance of it changing. The fact that Johnson mentioned biology suggests the Tories see it as a potential vote winner. Johnson will say whatever he thinks will win him votes of course so some research must have been done. Whose focus groups are correct?

Like @tabbycatstripy I don't think millions of votes will change over this issue ☹️ but many constituencies remain very close and women's rights might matter in some of them.

I doubt Labour will shift on this though. Too many vested interests now and too much of a chance that many MPs will turn on him.

I know 'social justice' ideology with its very partial hierarchy of victimhood has skewed a lot of people's view of justice and fair play. But most politicians grew up before 'social justice' and identity politics gained such a hold over young people.

I think it's about this. Mainly because if you ask the same people about some other controversy under the same system , say about race issues, you will get very similar kinds of responses. So you get black Americans who are more conservative, or who question the data of organizations like BLM on police violence, and they are accused of all kinds of awful things. If you are not black you are likely to have even more serious consequences.

But the issue, don't these people remember what things were like before is a good one. KS is older than me, and I remember. Yet I meet large numbers of people my age who, when you talk to them, don't seem to remember at all.

It's weird.

Saying the word penis is a no no. Exposing a penis to non consenting women and girls is fine so long as said penis identifies as she/her.