Hypothetical perfect sex change

In a world, without gender roles, you are still a woman and I believe I would still be a man to myself.

I thought the words 'woman' and 'man' are gender terms - so they wouldn't exist in a world without gender roles. We're just left with male and female.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM

both if you held a gun to my head then 'identify as a man'

That's an interesting answer.

Every TW I've asked that question to (that has been polite enough to answer) have said that their main feeling is that they 'don't identify as a man'. Some feel that continues into '...therefore I identify as a woman' but others understand that that isn't the logical conclusion.

Thanks for answering, I find it interesting to hear both male and female perspectives on dysphoria.

I actually think this thread is fascinating, not for the thought experiment but for the OP's disbelief that other people aren't as invested in their sexed bodies as he is - e.g. the assumption that anyone who undertook this imaginary procedure for convenience would have dysphoria. I think it's a real difference and barrier to discussion between those who feel like this and those that don't, though I don't think it divides neatly down lines of trans vs GC.

I haven't read the Gate To Women's Country for years. I find Sherri Tepper a bit radical for middle aged me, but I think I'll dust it off. And take another run at The Left Hand of Drakness.

Ursula Le Guin understood what being a woman means. I bloody love The Other Wind.

are there not already biological cis men who act in ways far closer to that expected of women? Chiefly thinking of effeminate gay men but also just normal men who behave in very traditionally feminine ways

I don’t think effeminate gay men behave like women at all.

And again with that word “normal”.

That’s twice I’ve seen that word used on here today. It’s not usually used by the regular posters here.

Well, I’m glad I clicked on this thread @Kanaloa as I too love a crap film 🤣

This is like the question people sometimes ask, "What if you woke up tomorrow in a man's body? How would you feel?"

Such questions and yours, OP presuppose that there is something that makes you who you are independently of all changes to your body. Usually this is thought of as a soul of some sort.

We owe this idea of an independently existing soul, more or less, to Descartes. It is intellectually enticing, but quite wrong.

Of course some bodily changes ageing in certain ways, even amputations, etc. will still leave me the same person. But some aspects of my physical body are necessary for me to be me, amongst which, my sex.

Another way of saying this, perhaps, would be to point out that changing sex is not just a scientific impossibility: it is a conceptual , or, if you like, metaphysical impossibility that a human being changes sex.

So, whoever wakes up tomorrow with a penis and all the trimmings, it will not be me. Why? --Because I am a woman.

Likewise, OP, with your thought experiment. The person after the change would not be the same person as the one before the change. Why? --Because they have different sexes, and being a certain sex is an essential component of who one is.

OK, I was prepared to humour this person, but actually they're an inconsiderate, ignorant fool

Either way, I wasn't talking about trans people. I was assuming this procedure was for everyone and there was no 'gatekeeping'.

Maya Angelou was right about believing people when they show you who they are.

Neuroplasticity is a thing op. Coma patients can retrain their brain to new pathways so they can learn to move paralysed parts of their body.

London taxi drivers can rewire their brains to better navigate the streets.

So any change in a transpersons brain is likely to have been nurtured by imitating and taking part in more stereotypically male or female activities.

Also, as someone who has some experience with brain scans and frustration at how little they can tell us about life limiting conditions, I find breezy assertions that the brain is that easily explored quite offensive.

There are people living with brain injuries that are so profound they don't have the use of their bodies and yet brain scans show their brains are within normal parameters.

It feels a bit like appropriation for want of a better word.

Lol, literally a meme where trans women are known to choose small tits and biggest LOL at thinking trans men wouldn't choose big dicks.

Sorry, is this hypothetical procedure only for trans people? I thought this was a thought experiment?

[quote MyLittlePhonyPony]@Motorina have just downloaded Ursula Le Guin's 'The Left Hand of Darkness' based on your recommendation.

Great highlighting of the key issues with this thought experiment.[/quote]
It can take a bit of getting into. Lots of difficult names at the start, so persevere.

If you like feminist thought experiment SF, I'd also recommend 'The Gate to Women's Country' by Sherri Tepper. Which I think I picked up from a recommendation on here, actually. I'd also recommend 'Glory Season' by David Brin.

I mean supposedly females would be in demand.

females are already in demand you fool. it does not go well for us

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibok_schoolgirls_kidnapping

@pop91... seriously??? We would valuable commodities as breeding stock???

Beautiful celebs not faces.

Though all these things would be a bit Freaky Friday.

I think in your hypothetical, changing every cell in your body and producing a different body down to face would produce dysphoria in most people.

The same as if we could change our bodies and faces to look like beautiful faces it would too.

I couldn't comment about dysphoria in our current world because I am of the opinion that my uncomfortableness with being a woman I accept is down to the inconvenience and disadvantages of being a woman. I was brought up to deal with annoyances such as inconvenient, painful periods and conditions as endometriosis as just part of my body.

I'm surprised you are surprised most women don't enjoy female oppression or the messy inconvenient parts of being female. Do you not have any female friends or family!?