Page 5 | Hypothetical perfect sex change

pop91 · 2022-03-27T02:06:22+00:00

Hypothetical: Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed? (To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as *ALL* other physical changes)

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/03/2022 10:12

I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?

do you seriously believe that because that if you'd been born in Somalia you would not have been subjected to FGM because "My brain tells me that I was meant to have a flat chest and dick" ?

fool twice over now

Women's problems are YOUR problems OP - wake up

DickKerrLadiesaurus · 27/03/2022 10:09

I don't understand what woman as an identity means.

But I think I can help you with understanding what gender critical means.

From the World Health Organisation:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other.

People who are gender critical are critical of gender. Fuck the boxes.

MyLittlePhonyPony · 27/03/2022 10:05

Looking through I can't find any reference to a poster saying gender dysphoria wouldn't occur.

Have you misread my own post? The flavour of which was I said that pretty much any drastic Freaky Friday body swap would result in a similar feeling to dysphoria, whether changing to be beautiful, look like a celeb whatever?

Or others who have said at present they don't like certain aspects of being female, such as periods, but they are not dysphoric?

Or can you post the post you are referring to please?

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 10:00

It begs the question. Of course, if you could perform a perfect sex change, the person's sex would have changed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2022 10:00

but i thought it was a gender role?

It's not exclusively a gender role. It's exclusively related to being an adult human female person.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/03/2022 09:59

In this thought experiment, can parents choose to transition their babies / children?

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:57

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

but i thought it was a gender role?

That's what you think it is.

NO i think it's an Identity NOT a role

OP posts:

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:56

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

Are gender roles the same as Man, Woman? and not just what's associated with those labels?

I was using your language, although TBF it may have been on your other thread that you said you see the words man and woman as being related to gender, not sex. I'm just trying to clarify for my own understanding.

Does that mean Gender Criticals are saying they do partake in gender roles willingly?

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

A woman is an adult human female.

I would not drink 'milk' from a bull.

but you said woman is a gender role? now it's not?

OP posts:

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:55

@ChateauMargaux

Why should we define ourselves based on what you or anyone else says... women has been used to describe adult human females for centuries. If sex does not equal gender then those who identify as something else need a new word... woman is already taken.

cool but someone just said women is a gender role and since GCs oppose gender roles?

OP posts:

DickKerrLadiesaurus · 27/03/2022 09:55

but i thought it was a gender role?

That's what you think it is.

MyLittlePhonyPony · 27/03/2022 09:54

Perhaps I missed it. Maybe you can quote the relevant poster's words?

DickKerrLadiesaurus · 27/03/2022 09:54

Are gender roles the same as Man, Woman? and not just what's associated with those labels?

I was using your language, although TBF it may have been on your other thread that you said you see the words man and woman as being related to gender, not sex. I'm just trying to clarify for my own understanding.

Does that mean Gender Criticals are saying they do partake in gender roles willingly?

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

A woman is an adult human female.

I would not drink 'milk' from a bull.

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:54

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

Nope. Because woman is simply the noun for an adult human female. Like bitch is a female dog and doe is a female deer.

but i thought it was a gender role?

OP posts:

ChateauMargaux · 27/03/2022 09:53

Why should we define ourselves based on what you or anyone else says... women has been used to describe adult human females for centuries. If sex does not equal gender then those who identify as something else need a new word... woman is already taken.

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:53

@MyLittlePhonyPony

It is interesting to hear people say they wouldn't experience dysphoria changing sex. I don't think anyone has said that?

It's your female body that makes you female. Not any hobbies or affectations.

I don't think anyone has said that?

fairly sure they did

OP posts:

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:52

@DomesticatedZombie

What are the most important issues facing us today?

Should climate change or world war threaten us all, which sex do you think will most be affected?

Why do you think childbirth injuries are often ignored?

Why do more black women die in childbirth in the UK than white women?

How should we tackle FGM?

What are the roots of male violence and how can we address them?

Sort them then, I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?

OP posts:

WouldBeGood · 27/03/2022 09:48

I don’t need to define myself.

I am a woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2022 09:44

Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

Nope. Because woman is simply the noun for an adult human female. Like bitch is a female dog and doe is a female deer.

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/03/2022 09:44

And which are just variations in personality and interests.

Am I like Nick Rhodes because we both like make up or like Charlie Dimmock because we both like digging ponds and don’t wear a bra?

MyLittlePhonyPony · 27/03/2022 09:42

It is interesting to hear people say they wouldn't experience dysphoria changing sex.
I don't think anyone has said that?

It's your female body that makes you female. Not any hobbies or affectations.

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:42

@DickKerrLadiesaurus

In a world, without gender roles, you are still a woman and I believe I would still be a man to myself.

I thought the words 'woman' and 'man' are gender terms - so they wouldn't exist in a world without gender roles. We're just left with male and female.

Question OP - do you feel more that you 'identify as a man' or that you 'don't identify as a woman'? I ask this because I've asked it to TW in the past and I would find it interesting to hear your perspective as a TM

both if you held a gun to my head then 'identify as a man'

That's an interesting answer.

Every TW I've asked that question to (that has been polite enough to answer) have said that their main feeling is that they 'don't identify as a man'. Some feel that continues into '...therefore I identify as a woman' but others understand that that isn't the logical conclusion.

Thanks for answering, I find it interesting to hear both male and female perspectives on dysphoria.

Are gender roles the same as Man, Woman? and not just what's associated with those labels?

Does that mean Gender Criticals are saying they do partake in gender roles willingly? Should you then define yourselves as females and not women?

OP posts:

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/03/2022 09:42

Well, you’d have to work out what are womanly behaviours and manly behaviours first.

Then see which are down to biology and which are down to socialisation.

User7777 · 27/03/2022 09:41

I'm loving this thought experiment, it's really interesting!
So, if someone could completely change biological sex down to every cell in their body, have they changed sex. Well, yes, as sex is biological.
What worries me is that if I could have changed sex as a child I'd have jumped at the chance. No doubt about it. I hated being a girl (in the 70s), being made to wear dresses, not being 'allowed' to climb trees and play rough games. I was a full on Tom boy.
But, I'm actually an autistic radical feminist. I hated being a girl because of societies expectations of my gender. I still hate having boobs (they get in the way), periods, menopause Ffs!, sexism, imbalance on relationships etc. I hate the female experience. I do not have a gender identity, I don't identify with societies expectations, I'm me, not something to fit in a box.
Like a pp said, I believe instead of changing your gender, we should get rid of the boxes we socialise the genders to fit into.

So back to the thought experiment, if a white person could change your skin colour similarly, would you then be black? Well, yes, biologically but you'd have grown up with white privilege so socially no? Maybe? I dunno, it's interesting.

Original poster

pop91 · 27/03/2022 09:39

@HardbackWriter

I actually think this thread is fascinating, not for the thought experiment but for the OP's disbelief that other people aren't as invested in their sexed bodies as he is - e.g. the assumption that anyone who undertook this imaginary procedure for convenience would have dysphoria. I think it's a real difference and barrier to discussion between those who feel like this and those that don't, though I don't think it divides neatly down lines of trans vs GC.

It is interesting to hear people say they wouldn't experience dysphoria changing sex.

I suppose my experience with gender dysphoria doesn't make it capable for me to fathom how someone could have a mismatch between their brain and body and not suffer for it?

OP posts:

DomesticatedZombie · 27/03/2022 09:38

What are the most important issues facing us today?

Should climate change or world war threaten us all, which sex do you think will most be affected?

Why do you think childbirth injuries are often ignored?

Why do more black women die in childbirth in the UK than white women?

How should we tackle FGM?

What are the roots of male violence and how can we address them?