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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hypothetical perfect sex change

238 replies

pop91 · 27/03/2022 03:06

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

OP posts:
OldCrone · 27/03/2022 11:47

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Instead of arguing with people on the internet by telling them what they think, read this discussion between two people

letter.wiki/conversation/1232[/quote]
Thanks for the link. For anyone who hasn't clicked on it, it's an exchange between Andy Lewis (@lecanardnoir on twitter) and someone called Aaron, who is an American philosopher.

Aaron can't define woman, but we have a new nonsense definition from him of a 'floating signifier'.

WouldBeGood · 27/03/2022 11:39

@GoldenGorilla yes, perfectly explained.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/03/2022 11:16

@GoldenGorilla

Ok, I’ll bite.

If a medical procedure could take a woman, change every cell, bone structure, organ size, musculature, dissolve some organs, grow other organs, so that physically and biologically that woman became indistinguishable from a man?

Then that person would biologically be a man.

However they still would not have been raised as a boy, socialised as a boy, treated as a boy/young man by the wider world, had the experiences of a boy who enters puberty, etc etc.

They would never be the same as a man who was born a man and raised as a man, and they should never try to tell men what “being a man” involves or is like or that all other men must immediately and unquestioningly accept them into their male spaces, groups designed specifically to support men, male friendship groups etc.

Compelled speech or requiring people to pretend that this person was always a man would also still be wrong.

So they’d be a biological man, for day to day purposes could live life “as a man” without most people noticing/caring that they have a different background.

But they still couldn’t and shouldn’t get away with all the shit that the TRAs are advocating for.

Also please stop imagining that you understand what the phrase “gender critical” means, you clearly don’t.

I was about to make these points, so thanks for saving me (and many others) the time, Golden.
MyLittlePhonyPony · 27/03/2022 11:15

Just because I'm used to being me, and I'm a woman. I've had my body for 50 years.

Yes, which would be the same whether you woke up in a man's body or the body of Jennifer Aniston or someone.

Which is why I don't think dysphoria would be the right word here. It would just be a perfectly natural reaction to magic in a world without magic.

I'm pretty sure if I developed super powers I'd go through very much the same thing. I mean, the whole canon of 'heros journey' usually begins with some kind of freak out/rejection of super hero powers.

Cloudyz7 · 27/03/2022 11:14

My brain tells me that I was meant to have a flat chest and dick but I didn't have those so that caused me distress and gender dysphoria.

A far easier solution to this would be for science/medical research to develop a one-time pill that could alleviate the distress and gender dysphoria. Surely that's preferable?

Fairislefandango · 27/03/2022 11:01

My brain tells me that I was meant to have a flat chest and dick but I didn't have those so that caused me distress and gender dysphoria.

I guess I find it impossible to believe that dysphoria is anything other than either a) a mental health disorder which manifests as a strong desire to be something you are not or b) an extreme reaction to not liking the stereotypes associated with the sex you were born, and perhaps to feeling unable to be openly 'gender-non-conforming' as a child or young person for fear of the reactions of your family or peers.

The idea that your brain tells you what body parts you ought to have seems like a narrative or a way of rationalising those feelings (which you might have had from avery young age) as though they were an inherent part of you rather than something which has come about due to trauma, mental health issues or feeling you don't fit with society's expectations of how a person of your biological sex 'should' be. Your brain is a part of your body, the only body you can have, it's not a separate, independent entity that gets placed in one body or another.

Incidentally, I wouldn't prefer to be a man. I think I'd be very freaked out by suddenly being a man. Not because of any internal gender identity as such. Just because I'm used to being me, and I'm a woman. I've had my body for 50 years.

OhHolyJesus · 27/03/2022 10:56

Like a super-advanced future version of CRISPR

There are some complex ethical issues around CRISP, with one Dr Jiankui in jail for breaching international law around gene editing.

www.geneticsandsociety.org/press-statement/civil-society-calls-international-summit-human-genome-editing-condemn-gene-edited

I have no issue discussing this by the way, I wouldn't personally accept a man who had a physical body of a woman, as a woman, if it was some kind of 'Freaky Friday' version.

His brain and the experience of being male would still inform all his thoughts and feelings and actions. The more women see the protests for us speaking about our rights, the less I have any interest in making life any more comfortable for those who want to embody, silence, rename or delete us.

Hasselhoffsheadband · 27/03/2022 10:53

With respect, we are busy thinking with real life issues, such as 98% of sexual crime being perpetrated by males, the effect of allowing males to compete in female sports, kids being injected with powerful drugs that could permanently harm them forever, so we don't really have the time to navel gaze about science fiction fantasy.

Cloudyz7 · 27/03/2022 10:52

@pop91
then someone what are womanly behaviours that trans men do that cis men don't?

I would say that a 'womanly' behaviour is posting on Mumsnet. A 'cis' man would be asking the question on Pisonheads.

Motorina · 27/03/2022 10:49

@nightwakingmoon

(In fact, I would love to plonk some young transmen down in my very male dominated workplace and have them just watch the men - of all ages - for a few weeks. Because so much of this fantasy around maleness is based on a kind of teenage boyband/anime image of men and masculinity; and bears almost no resemblance to what male culture and male socialisation is actually like.)
And the other way round, too. Transwomen who's idea of 'living as a woman' is posting pictures of their pushup bra and heels on fashion groups, or teenage girls having pillow fights. It's never trying to juggle work and the school pickup, or dealing with bleeding through their trousers in the office.

Which is why I say the whole premise of the OP is nuts. If we could actually switch sex down to the DNA, then our concepts of what sex and gender are would be radically different, both on a societal and an individual level. How society works would be fundamentally different. That might mean an elite caste where only the wealthy can 'opt in' to the desired sex; it might be a dissolving of sex-based social roles; or it might mean people taking different sexes at different stages of life (so a male, active, earning and striving young adulthood, followed by a female, nurturing middle age caring for all the children of the group). I have science fiction books on my shelves that play with all those ideas.

What it wouldn't be is just like now but with a few transpeople making a better transition. If you change one of the fundamentals of life (sex is binary and immutable) you inevitably change the whole shebang.

nightwakingmoon · 27/03/2022 10:40

(In fact, I would love to plonk some young transmen down in my very male dominated workplace and have them just watch the men - of all ages - for a few weeks. Because so much of this fantasy around maleness is based on a kind of teenage boyband/anime image of men and masculinity; and bears almost no resemblance to what male culture and male socialisation is actually like.)

Slothtoes · 27/03/2022 10:40

I think part of the reasons sex changes don’t work at present is the sexist socialisation that goes with sex. As long as that persists, we’ll still have sexism culturally.
I think that’s really important and is a separate issue to whether people might pass or don’t as the opposite sex, due to whatever technique being used.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2022 10:39

It would make no difference if I "preferred to be a man", it's not possible for me to be one.

Fieldofgreycorn · 27/03/2022 10:38

Look more globally and you have infant girls having their genitalia removed or sewn shut
Foetuses being aborted because a scan shows they don't have a penis
Newborns being left to die, actively murdered or abandoned because they were born with a vulva and vagina
Girls being trafficked and sold for sex or slavery

Half do you think a lot of women in this country are as aware of these things? There may be a higher awareness on this forum because it’s a feminist forum. But I don’t think that makes most women I know prefer to be men or not glad to be female.

ChateauMargaux · 27/03/2022 10:34

What I don't like is my femaleness being defined for me, being oppressed for being female, the constraints that are placed upon me for being female but neither do I believe I should hide the fact that I a. female, that I should have surgery or take hormones to change the outward appearance of my femaleness, or that I should perform our femaleness to a set of stereotypes defined by others. I also do not believe that I feel the same as other females.. I feel like me... and I am female because of my biology.

PonyPatter44 · 27/03/2022 10:33

If my aunt had bollocks, she'd be my uncle. I hope this helps.

Cwenthryth · 27/03/2022 10:32

Sort them then, I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?
Wrong again on all counts OP.
These are all issues that affect the female sex, regardless of an individual’s beliefs around gender in general, or their own identity. They are sex based issues. That is what gender critical feminists recognise.

Also, most fellow GC feminists I’ve ever met and had in-depth discussions with, have cared deeply for what is happening to young females identifying as non-binary and trans men. Really deeply. Because we recognise a lot of ourselves in what you go through.

EishetChayil · 27/03/2022 10:32

If this technology existed, I would bank a load of sperm from the intellectually and physically superior men from the various races, then turn all men into women.

nightwakingmoon · 27/03/2022 10:31

Yes exactly Bernard - I was in a hobby group online where it was all women apart from one young transman, and there was literally no trace of male socialisation at all. Every way that “he” interacted socially - language, style, outlook, opinions, likes and dislikes - was indistinguishable from the young female participants. It was clear that there was not in fact much actual knowledge of or interest in actual men, male culture, stereotypically male socialisation, interests or behaviour - more like a kind of fantasy about maleness going on (“boyish” t-shirts, flat chest etc.), that was to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the young women.

I felt sorry for them, since they so very clearly had very little experience of men and tbh like most middle aged women, I have experienced more than enough of men and male socialisation and quite frankly an baffled at the fact that these young transitioning girls are seeking to become something that they so clearly have such little knowledge of.

HalfShrunkMoreToGo · 27/03/2022 10:29

@pop91 this sentence from you fascinates me

"nope, I meant for trans people but interesting to hear people say most women would become men just for the benefits."

JUST for the benefits

Women are still do not have equity with men even in the UK which is supposed to be a modern and progressive society.

Pay disparity and low representation in senior roles
Increased poverty
74% of women in prison in the last stats issued in 2019 were there for failure to pay TV license.
Men can have children and it's fine to never pay or care for them leaving women in poverty

Look more globally and you have infant girls having their genitalia removed or sewn shut
Foetuses being aborted because a scan shows they don't have a penis
Newborns being left to die, actively murdered or abandoned because they were born with a vulva and vagina
Girls being trafficked and sold for sex or slavery

There is no JUST about the benefits of being male.

Fieldofgreycorn · 27/03/2022 10:23

(Trigger warning: assault, rape)

I do feel weird that so many women here don't, particularly like being female.

Hi OP. Not an unreasonable observation. I’ve been here a few years and noticed that. I think there is a higher proportion of women that have been harmed, abused or raped by men on this forum. (No I’m not saying their views are less valid). Most of my (non trans) female friends love being women and would not want to be men despite the crap bits like periods and occasionally appalling maternity care. Some are highly paid, some not.

  1. Currently you believe sex and gender are different and sex can’t be changed. Your hypothetical hasn’t arrived yet so doesn’t that give us a problem now for spaces like toilets, changing rooms, sports and prisons? Because those spaces are separated by sex not gender aren’t they?
  1. There are a lot of male sex offenders in prisons, most of whom have committed crimes against women and girls. If they could undergo perfect physical sex changes after discharge, doesn’t that give us a problem if they could mix more freely in female spaces where women and girls are more vulnerable? What is the solution there?
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 27/03/2022 10:20

I apologise if my humour came across as inconsiderate and/or ignorant.

watching the OP do female socialisation all over the thread is interesting in a schadenfreude kind of way

nightwakingmoon · 27/03/2022 10:17

Hey, pop91. There are lots of kinds of “identity”, aren’t there. Would you explain to me a bit how you think, say, national identity works? And how “national identity” compares to “the place where you were born”?

Are people born in the U.K. born naturally polite and reserved? Are Americans naturally smiley?

If I went and learned all the customs and language of Peru and became a citizen there, would this change where I was born?

Is “national identity” a natural thing? Does it exist in my soul somewhere? Or is it just a collection of behaviours and narratives? Is there a difference between a “genuine” national identity and an exaggerated fantasised jingoistic version of wartime and Brexit? Or are they both just different made up narratives? Do they have any basis in anything material apart from the culture around me?

Would you agree that national identities create damaging fictions and that we should break free of them and live as free world citizens; or do you like your national identity and zealously want to protect it? Do you believe fully that you are innately of a particular nationality in your soul?

Is there anything essential about gender identity that makes it different from national identity…?

tabbycatstripy · 27/03/2022 10:16

It's like saying, 'If I could turn an orange into a kiwi fruit, would you recognise it as a kiwi fruit?'

I would.

I would also expect other forms of sorcery to follow.

DomesticatedZombie · 27/03/2022 10:13

Sort them then, I'm not part of your gender and you clearly don't care for my issues so why should I for yours?

Well, good to see you're offering to take part in a fully realised and healthy adult reciprocal relationship, OP.

I'm going to suggest therapy to address your issues. And if you're not willing to even consider participating in anything that doesn't pertain to your absurd self-indulgent fantasies, I think I'm done here.

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