Hypothetical perfect sex change

I’ve thought before that this is an interesting philosophical question. It’s not entirely beyond the realms of possibility that one day, genetic manipulation might be able to turn testicular tissue into ovarian tissue, though it looks a very long way off that anything regarding larger scale physical changes might be achieved.

What I would say is that even if your sex changed completely, you could never undo all your socialisation. I also suspect that if technology had moved that far, there’s a good chance other technology might have advanced too, so that the obvious societal problems and inequalities that make separate women’s rights and women’s spaces necessary, will perhaps have disappeared. If you can turn a male body into a female one, presumably all kinds of other manipulations would also be possible. Why would we bother with sexed bodies anyway?

Realistically, most men who fantasize about being women don’t actually want to be women anyway. They want to experience “gender euphoria” and we all know what that requires!

🍖🥦🥬

So in the end, it’s a pointless question, as others have observed. Perhaps doctors will, in time, learn the more important art of mending the brain, so that people with actual sex confusion and distress will learn to accept their sexed bodies, and can have the damage that caused them to misconstrue their sex undone. And those whose sexual tendencies have formed into abnormal and harmful patterns might be fixed too. I live in hope.

My answer is no because we consider girls and women with CAIS to be girls and women because of their socialisation as girls and women, rather than their underlying genotype.

In the equally unlikely event that a boy was both brought up as a girl from the point his parents decided liking glitter made him a girl AND they destroyed his fertility but magically gave him female gametes I'd still say no because he was known to be a boy and, like JJ, I bet his place in the family and the way his family persuade school etc to treat him is also like a son.

This is also like girls with CAIS who are known to have XY in some cases from quite early but still socialised like girls/school will treat them like girls.

@wasibat - yes indeed; and without that Thomist strain it’s particularly notable that the C of E seems to have fully embraced gender ideology — yet remains wary of homosexuality, and still uncomfortable with women despite its apparent acceptance.

'Thank you so much for using "begs the question" in (what I believe to be) the correct way! It's so rare these days, makes me nostalgic for A level maths and my teacher shouting "don't beg the question!" when we were doing proofs.'

Had to! It's such a very good example.

-- Although many soi-disant atheists have also bought the Cartesian myth lock-stock-and-barrel.

And some religious do not buy it: this is what 'Resurrection of the body' is all about in the Christian Creed; you cannot be you without your body. (Here is a way Aquinas survived Descartes, if you like.)

Interesting that a Thomist-style Christian will not consistently be able to buy into trans 'gender identity'. But, well, who cares? (No-one, probably.)

You know. I am getting pretty tired of this ‘gender criticals’ shit. Do you see any regular poster on this board calling people ‘the transes’.

It is a very strange dehumanising way to refer to people who disagree with you, OP. Have you ever wondered about your own prejudices? Because on your two threads you really seem to be heavily invested in dehumanising people who disagree and you even seem to have rather dramatically misrepresented what ‘the gender criticals’ think.

Ever give you pause?

It just seems to be a "fuck everyone else" attitude.

[quote HalfShrunkMoreToGo]@pop91 this sentence from you fascinates me

"nope, I meant for trans people but interesting to hear people say most women would become men just for the benefits."

JUST for the benefits

Women are still do not have equity with men even in the UK which is supposed to be a modern and progressive society.

Pay disparity and low representation in senior roles
Increased poverty
74% of women in prison in the last stats issued in 2019 were there for failure to pay TV license.
Men can have children and it's fine to never pay or care for them leaving women in poverty

Look more globally and you have infant girls having their genitalia removed or sewn shut
Foetuses being aborted because a scan shows they don't have a penis
Newborns being left to die, actively murdered or abandoned because they were born with a vulva and vagina
Girls being trafficked and sold for sex or slavery

There is no JUST about the benefits of being male.
[/quote]
I've suddenly felt angry at trans men - I don't usually. But just thinking that they're opting out of all that women have to deal with, and leaving the rest of us to deal with it.

Like the case of a female employee who declared herself non-binary, and so fought for special permission for herself to wear a male uniform, rather than fighting for all the employees to be able to wear either the "male" or "female" uniform.

[quote WouldBeGood]@Kanaloa petite, but big gun? 🤣

Told ds about this film and he’s told me about one called Velocipastor - on the list[/quote]
Who knows 😂 sounds ridiculous though. I like the sound of Velocipastor - I’m a big fan of sharknado and the likes!

Depends on the age. At say 12 months old then I think it would be impossible to know the baby had undergone such a procedure. The parents should of course then go to prison for subjecting their child to the procedure.

Adults of course the procedure would simply be impossible, men and women simply don't think the same way due to biological needs, environment and cultural identity. If the persons brain were changed so that they think the way the opposite sex does... then the original person has been destroyed and remade into someone else.

Biological dimorphism doesn't stop with the genitals.

Yawn. What a load of silly nonsense OP. No, it will never be possible, and yes, that is relevant to your thought experiment.

It’s scientifically possible now for a white person to be made to look like a black person. Does that mean that black people should have to accept such a white person as being just like them? Or would they perhaps be right to say (a) that’s blackface (b) it’s offensive and appropriating and (c) what sort of psychological mess are you to want to do that.

@Kanaloa petite, but big gun? 🤣

Told ds about this film and he’s told me about one called Velocipastor - on the list

What makes humans bodies sexed is not just their DNA but also the developmental processes they have been through. Hence why you can have conditions like androgen insensitivity syndrome where a person's karotype is of one sex but their body has developed characteristics of the other sex.

So the only way to achieve a 'perfect' sex change would be to revert back to the fertilised egg, change the DNA, implant the egg in a uterus and start the whole developmental process from scratch. Anything short of that would still leave characteristics of the previous sex.

Really want to know how these people think their consciousness will continue to exist in a completely different brain and body.

How do you not realise within five seconds of thinking about this question that the underlying assumptions are religious?

It's a hypothetical question but considering that self-ID doesn't require any sort of sex change operation (or taking of cross-sex hormones), I think we're better off questioning the "trans" people who don't want to transition.

@WouldBeGood

Watch it! I’m in the mood to watch it now, might ask DH if he fancies it tonight 😂 it’s got Michelle Rodriguez as Frank the hitman bizarrely - not sure how he managed to grow long hair during this forced sex change but I’m sure it will be explained in the course of the film. Also must have been a pretty petite hitman!

@Thelnebriati

It’s not a hypothetical thought experiment - according to the op it’s just a possible future medical procedure. Not sure why they’re insisting on pretending that the total impossibility of this procedure is irrelevant.

@pop91 If you change 'sex' to 'race' does this hypothetical thought experiment become offensive?

Oh sorry I see you have already answered that question!

pop91

we would end up with a horrendous sci-fi dystopia

"I dunno a lot of this depends on men being innately sexual monsters but I think that social more than biological.

If culture changed so would men."

I think this is the more interesting question. How do we get men to change?

We may prefixe this with the question, do men need to change? I think we know from society, yes, as most violence comes from men. So back to the question how. And would men be happier if they did, I believe so, and would society function better, I believe so.

"I just refuse to believe women hate being female THAT much and none of these reasons played into why I transitioned."

I love being female, I love the fact I have birth to a child but I didn't enjoy pregnancy or birth much. I hate the fact I am too scared to walk alone at night but my husband is rarely scared.

If I magically morphed into a man, would I still feel scared walking alone at night? Unless I lost all my memories, I expect I would.

pop why did you transition, and are you a trans man or other? You do not need to day, I am most asking. My child is non-binary trans masculine.

pop91 : My brain tells me that I was meant to have a flat chest and dick but I didn't have those so that caused me distress and gender dysphoria.

This may seem an odd question, pop91 , but who or what is this 'me' that apparently owns your ('my') brain and is told such things by this brain? Further, how does your brain tell you stuff like this? Have you ever thought that maybe you mishear (misread? -- anyway mistake) what you think your brain tells you? What, I wonder, is odd about such questions?

... I suppose you mean nothing more than that you think (feel?) you were meant to have a flat chest and dick. Talk of 'my brain tells me' may be a relatively harmless metaphor. Saying this, and thinking of it, the way you do, though ( 'my brain tells me' and so on), predisposes you to think you are something that exists independently of the body of which your brain is a part. And so off we go with the soul or gender identity and so on.

It is difficult to get your head round this (another metaphor!), I know. Our understanding gets 'bewitched' by the way our language works, as a famous philosopher once said. But do have a think about it all ...

Again, who or what is this 'me' that my brain talks to? (Writes to? ... sends pictures to? ... communicates telepathically with?) Is this 'me' ( 'Am I?' ) a physical thing? Non-physical? Or what? How is this 'me' related to the walking, talking human being that lives my life? And so on.

If you think about this, you might see that this soul thing is illusory. But that, of course puts paid also to the idea of 'gender' as something you have which is independent of (biological, bodily) sex. This strikes at the basis of your ideology, I know. Still, do have a think.

What’s the difference between an “effeminate gay man” and a “normal man”? @pop91

As on your other thread, you’re sounding more and more homophobic as you go on.

Hypothetical experiments, thought experiments, same old misogyny in another form.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3420810-Donna-Zuckerberg-Social-media-has-elevated-misogyny-to-new-levels-of-violence