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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Former Trans Child of Gender Critical Parents (very long). *Trigger warning - descriptions of self harm and suicide* - Title edited by MNHQ

541 replies

pop91 · 26/03/2022 22:33

Hi,

To start I wanna say I'm writing this post in good faith to provide the viewpoint of a Trans person with Gender Critical parents but I know this is the internet and this will probably just be trolled to death but here goes.

I had a pretty regular 'happy' family setup, and apparently first told my parents of my identity at just 5yrs old but the first I remember is at 8yrs old when I refused to go by my 'very gendered' birth name but my parents insisted on using it especially publicly.

My parents were never particularly strict on gender roles in the home - my sister would wear my dad's glasses and jacket and stomp around with his briefcase in hand and my brother had an emo phase with heels and mascara to match and apart from some grumbling from my father it was never the biggest issue in our house.

Sexuality was different though even though my father would class himself as a pragmatic centrist, barring a socialist university phase, and my mother a card-carrying progressive New Labour type whose Best Friend was the most flamboyant gay man and an Aunt who lived with her 'friend' until she passed. There was an uncomfortableness with sexuality where both my parents would call it a lifestyle choice and opposed gay marriage - cut to three years ago when my older brother came out as bisexual and last month the youngest sister as a lesbian Grin but rest assured the other 3 siblings remain firmly 'normal.'

Back to me and by 12 I had started puberty and was experiencing debilitating gender dysphoria - I would look into the mirror and see nothing that matched my brain. I would continue to feel this way until the bullying and dysphoria got so bad that one night I climbed into my bathtub with a kitchen knife hoping I could change my body to fit my brain somehow I managed not to perform self-surgery in my bathtub.

A couple of months later I came clean to my parents, I wasn't expecting a big hug but I wasn't expecting what came next. They ignored it as if I had told them what I wanted for dinner, they decided they didn't hear what I had said at all.

Over the next year, the internet became my friend as I found ways to affirm my gender by doing hidden things at first and then slowly more outward things. I came out to my siblings and although they found it confusing my oldest brother and sister were a godsend who I wouldn't have survived without, They helped me pick out a new haircut and new clothes and we came up with a new name.

I came out in school and sure there was bullying but I was feeling so Euphoric that it almost didn't matter. When the teachers found out they informed my parents and that's when everything changed! My parents sat me down and said I was just confused. They threw out my new clothes, anything that I used to affirm my gender, even my shoes and magazines then they took my bedroom door off and took away my laptop and phone and forced my older siblings to refer to me by my birth name, my older brother and sister stopped supporting me and I lost my only family support and anything that was helping me.

Eventually, when they realised everything they had done hadn't worked and I still felt the same way, they decided to try both religious and non-religious conversion therapy which left permanent scarring to my mental health and I frequently have nightmares about it.

At 15 I had my first suicide attempt and my parents forced me to lie and say it was due just to bullying at school but that wasn't true it was the dysphoria and conversion therapy that was killing me.

From 15 to 17 I had multiple suicide attempts and after the third one, my parents finally allowed me to stop the conversion therapy but still forcibly live as my 'biological' sex.

Eventually, I managed to get to a great University and at 18 I socially transitioned and by 20 I had started hormones. I now have a job that provides me financial stability and have an amazing partner, with 2 children from a prior relationship that I now consider like my own. We are also now having a baby very soon.

My mother now describes herself as Gender Critical and frequently posts online about how she will be unable to see her grandchildren because of her views, which is true as I will not allow my parents to see either my child or stepchildren.

My parents continue to refuse to acknowledge my identity and pronouns. The last time we talked, she said she believes I am just gay, which neither makes sense considering my partner's gender nor the fact she also has a terrible relationship with my lesbian sister and bisexual brother who also rarely allows his child to visit my mum, due to her comments about their sexualities.

I finally have the support back of all my siblings and we do frequently gather without my parents. I hope one day my parents change their minds but honestly I don't hold much hope and I don't know if I could forgive what they did to me.

A lot of online trans activists wish trans children for Gender Criticals but I don't, it wasn't very nice at all. If you're going to ask if I think kids should transition, the answer is I don't know as I didn't transition as a child and a social transition helped plenty for me.

Well that's it I think, just the perspective and experience of a trans person with Gender Critical parents, feel free to ask any reasonable questions or respectful questions. Smile

OP posts:
RoseslnTheHospital · 27/03/2022 18:51

I don't have an identity as a biological woman, I just am one. I don't have an identity as a brown eyed person. I just am one. I don't have an identity as an average height person, or an identity as a person with size 4 feet... and so on. "Cis" is about as relevant to me as calling me a heathen because you have a religious identity.

PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 18:50

"Cis" isn't neutral, fyi.

I don't think I'm cis, no-one has explained what gender means in a way I understand, so I don't have one to match or not match my sex.

I would say I am agender and therefore under the trans umbrella, as much as I understand it.

WarriorN · 27/03/2022 18:50

Ps historically the more centre a party is the more likely they'll crawl back into power. See Blair, Cameron etc. Corbyn was the death knell sadly. Not best choice for leadership.

Grayson Perry was doing a fabulous stage show on all this pre pandemic and the similarities he pointed out between Boris and Jez were v ironic.

But I do feel the internet and SM are beginning to change things somewhat.

donquixotedelamancha · 27/03/2022 18:48

In fact just a while ago when the new Disney movie came out, many GCs seemed to accuse what was presented as a physically strong cis-woman of being 'secretly trans' or pushing a 'trans agenda on kids.'

What on earth makes you think those people were GC feminists?

RoseslnTheHospital · 27/03/2022 18:48

What does being "critical of gender" mean to you? How would you expect that to manifest?

How could someone be critical of sex? What would that mean and how would that manifest? I must admit I can't see how someone could be critical of sex, it would be like being critical of respiration, or digestion, or of height.

mudgetastic · 27/03/2022 18:48

Cis is not neutral

It assumes a gender

Not everyone had one

You are tone deaf

QueenSue · 27/03/2022 18:48

I also want to know what you think gender critical feminism means, pop91.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 18:47

@Campervan69

This is a very long thread so excuse me if this has already been asked and responded to.

Women constantly tell TRAs how they are offended by the term "CIS" and the term "TERF" yet they continue to use them against their wishes. Why is this OK? Yet the other terms you cited that offend other groups are not?

I don't use Terf I use GC as was requested by GCs.

CIS is a neutral descriptor of anyone who isn't trans.
It's like being offended by 'Straight' or 'White' or 'trans'
They are neutral descriptors that don't deny your identity as a biological woman because that's literally what it means.

Calling a trans man a woman, for example, is actively denying their identity as a trans man whereas CIS doesn't do that, it does the opposite in fact.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 27/03/2022 18:46

@pop91

I'm exceptionally impressed with the respectful debate and non plopping from you. And ironic jokes!

I guessed your sex from the way you diligently and patiently answered questions. I know this is sexist (is it?) but I could just tell. We aren't used to it!

I hope Mother's Day has been ok for you - you will have a wee one next year! And mn is a huge source of support so please do use it.

I really wish that writing and experiences like this wonderfully insightful piece were around sooner. Hopefully they'll help others in the future.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/03/lauren-black-i-am-a-butch-lesbian-i-live-with-gender-dysphoria-i-do-not-believe-my-deep-discomfort-with-my-female-body-means-that-i-should-take-steps-to-change-it/

pop91 · 27/03/2022 18:40

@PrelateChuckles

You may understand the confusion from TRA's when so many different people are labelling themselves Gender Critical while reinforcing Sex roles and stereotypes?

OP - do you think, perhaps, you are starting to see just a tiny little issue with 'anyone is anything they say they are no matter how they act'?

If someone says they are left-wing, but only votes for, campaigns for, fundraises for right-wing parties, and espouses right-wing views, would you still believe them to be left-wing?

Again - you clearly don't know what 'gender critical' means and it's becoming a bit embarrassing for you.

Gender-critical people want to get rid of harmful gender stereotypes. That's the 'critical' bit.

Did you... did you think it meant 'critical' as in "very important"? So you imagined gender-critical means someone who thinks gender is super important, and rules and laws relating to sex should be reordered around gender?

If someone says they are left-wing, but only votes for, campaigns for, fundraises for right-wing parties, and espouses right-wing views, would you still believe them to be left-wing?

I mean if someone says they are left-wing and then gets elected leader of a left-wing party and then espouses right-wing views, would you still believe them to be left-wing? (subtle Blair/Starmer dig) Grin

No but I'd be suspicious why a left-wing party have allowed such people into a left-wing party and call for them to be removed
(seriously Starmer needs to be removed)

Did you... did you think it meant 'critical' as in "very important"? So you imagined gender-critical means someone who thinks gender is super important, and rules and laws relating to sex should be reordered around gender?

No, I believe it makes you critical of gender but not sex.

OP posts:
PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 18:36

@WeeBisom

OP, what do you think gender critical feminists stand for and believe? You don't seem to have a particularly solid grasp of what being gender critical entails.
They've been asked this from the start and won't answer.
WeeBisom · 27/03/2022 18:35

OP, what do you think gender critical feminists stand for and believe? You don't seem to have a particularly solid grasp of what being gender critical entails.

PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 18:34

It's been illuminating, anyway OP.
Your view of gender seems a bit removed from the current Stonewall et al thinking. For you it seems centred on the body - on being unhappy with how your body is and wanting to change it fairly drastically (height, sex, at least).

I assume - but please do correct me as I'm interested - you're not too convinced by 'self-id', wherein a man can look like Kim Kardashian and be just as much of a man as George Clooney errr Zayn Malik?

Or do you feel that body appearance is actually quite a big factor, and an invisible inner gender feeling isn't what you consider to be 'gender identity'?

Helleofabore · 27/03/2022 18:34

No Binders are not neutral but neither is clothing that made me look more masculine or hide breasts. Even a tighter shirt underneath and wider pants helped hide curves.

right. But we have already agreed that your parents were abusive. Hiding 'curves' is certainly something I did, and certainly something I do now. 'binders' can cause damage and harm. Whereas wearing clothes that hide 'curves' are not flattening breast tissue causing harm.

There is a difference, and I think you know this.

Campervan69 · 27/03/2022 18:33

This is a very long thread so excuse me if this has already been asked and responded to.

Women constantly tell TRAs how they are offended by the term "CIS" and the term "TERF" yet they continue to use them against their wishes. Why is this OK? Yet the other terms you cited that offend other groups are not?

RoseslnTheHospital · 27/03/2022 18:32

There isn't a "gender critical" person. There are people, some of whom are critical of gender. Typically they are often radical feminists or use another feminist description, and are critical of gendered roles and expectations imposed on women (and by extension, men) as a means to control women in a patriarchal and misogynist world. That's it.

I think you are confusing conservative people who are against gender ideology and trans activism from a religious and socially conservative viewpoint with people who are critical of gender from a feminist view point. They are very very different things.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 18:32

@Helleofabore

it was more physical appearance. I wasn't allowed to cut my hair like Zayn Malick anymore and I didn't have to wear dresses but I wasn't allowed to wear long jumpers with characters like Pokemon on.

Do you understand that your parents seemed to have some very weird ideas?

My teenager got hugely upset and had meltdowns because I wouldn't buy them highly sexualised clothing that their friends all wore (so my teen told me) when they were 11/12/13. They had lots of other choices. From 14 they got to choose most of their clothes and choose a wide range but are not at all copying their friends. They choose their hair too because I no longer have to be responsible for it looking neat and suitable for football /school/knot & nit free. They are determined to forge their own style.

I am sorry to hear that your parent made those decisions for you.

Do you understand that your parents seemed to have some very weird ideas?

of course!

My teenager got hugely upset and had meltdowns because I wouldn't buy them highly sexualised clothing that their friends all wore (so my teen told me) when they were 11/12/13. They had lots of other choices. From 14 they got to choose most of their clothes and choose a wide range but are not at all copying their friends. They choose their hair too because I no longer have to be responsible for it looking neat and suitable for football /school/knot & nit free. They are determined to forge their own style

Separate point but my mother had a meltdown when I had a shirt with a semi-nude woman on it, pretty much called my older brother a rapist for having let me wear it. (NOT RELATED TO GC PEOPLE, JUST A FUNNY STORY) Grin

I am sorry to hear that your parent made those decisions for you

No need to be sorry, you aren't them obviouly.

OP posts:
PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 18:30

You may understand the confusion from TRA's when so many different people are labelling themselves Gender Critical while reinforcing Sex roles and stereotypes?

OP - do you think, perhaps, you are starting to see just a tiny little issue with 'anyone is anything they say they are no matter how they act'?

If someone says they are left-wing, but only votes for, campaigns for, fundraises for right-wing parties, and espouses right-wing views, would you still believe them to be left-wing?

Again - you clearly don't know what 'gender critical' means and it's becoming a bit embarrassing for you.

Gender-critical people want to get rid of harmful gender stereotypes. That's the 'critical' bit.

Did you... did you think it meant 'critical' as in "very important"? So you imagined gender-critical means someone who thinks gender is super important, and rules and laws relating to sex should be reordered around gender?

Mermaidsh1t · 27/03/2022 18:29

Your parwnts aren't GC as I kmow it, they're biggoted and abusive. I hope you find peace and self acceptance.

Clymene · 27/03/2022 18:27

That's horrible @pop91. I literally have never stopped my children wearing anything they want. Or doing their hair anyway they want (as long as the colour washes out/is cut off by the end of the summer holidays as their school doesn't allow 'unnatural' colours).

I might think some of their fashion choices are a bit dodgy but my mum also thought some of mine were pretty awful. Grin

Your parents were abusive. Not gender critical. Abusive.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 18:24

@Helleofabore

Would they ask them to accept such body parts as an acceptance of their biological sex or would there be an understanding of how the 'feeling' doesn't go away for most trans people?

We are talking about teenagers here and only teenagers.

The teenaged daughters I know are being taught to accept that they cannot change their body parts now. Who knows whether they will or won't in the future. The point is, they are working on accepting their bodies cannot be changed now. And that binders are not a neutral item of clothing. One is a doctor and knows this very well.

The 'feeling' may or may not go away. These teens are being given the breathing space (ie. without medicalisation at all) to find out.

That you seem to think people on this board would be abusive to their children is actually really chilling. Completely chilling. And we have seen it all before. directly from twitter.

I mean I'm getting a lot of comments about what a gender-critical person is and isn't but that remains a confusing point.

Not ALL GCs (especially on Twitter/Facebook) have argued against gendered socialisation. In fact just a while ago when the new Disney movie came out, many GCs seemed to accuse what was presented as a physically strong cis-woman of being 'secretly trans' or pushing a 'trans agenda on kids.' or adverts/tv shows/movies where a male child has worn a dress and/or makeup and the same 'trans agenda' line has been pushed. which does evidently seems counter to what you're saying of destroying gender roles without sex change.

You may understand the confusion from TRA's when so many different people are labelling themselves Gender Critical while reinforcing Sex roles and stereotypes?

The teenaged daughters I know are being taught to accept that they cannot change their body parts now. Who knows whether they will or won't in the future. The point is, they are working on accepting their bodies cannot be changed now. And that binders are not a neutral item of clothing. One is a doctor and knows this very well

That may well work for some children but more being told to accept or love my body the way it was only caused me more distress. I wonder how that distress could be alleviated for the children that feel it?

No Binders are not neutral but neither is clothing that made me look more masculine or hide breasts. Even a tighter shirt underneath and wider pants helped hide curves. None of that felt neutral.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 27/03/2022 18:19

@PrelateChuckles

Oh snap. Gc feminists are famously against long jumpers with cartoons on ConfusedWink
yes ... it sounds very suspicious like my teenaged wardrobe!

... and maybe close to my current one....

Helleofabore · 27/03/2022 18:18

it was more physical appearance.
I wasn't allowed to cut my hair like Zayn Malick anymore and I didn't have to wear dresses but I wasn't allowed to wear long jumpers with characters like Pokemon on.

Do you understand that your parents seemed to have some very weird ideas?

My teenager got hugely upset and had meltdowns because I wouldn't buy them highly sexualised clothing that their friends all wore (so my teen told me) when they were 11/12/13. They had lots of other choices. From 14 they got to choose most of their clothes and choose a wide range but are not at all copying their friends. They choose their hair too because I no longer have to be responsible for it looking neat and suitable for football /school/knot & nit free. They are determined to forge their own style.

I am sorry to hear that your parent made those decisions for you.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 18:11

@Helleofabore

Isn't Gender Critical / GC the correct chosen term as many would call GCs terfs instead?

As usual OP you really are looking at posters here as a group from your own prejudiced lens. That of someone who believes they know what being gender critical means. When the reality seems to be that you seem to have some idea but mostly it is what you have read from others who are deeply prejudiced and yet never sought to understand or from your mother who seems to not be representative at all.

But you have used phrases like 'the GCs' or 'GCs' all through your posts. That is dehumanising whether you accept this or not. And it is done by people who then do this so it is ok to demonise women who disagree with them.

Would you like to be called 'the transes' or 'the transmens'?

Would you like to be called 'the transes' or 'the transmens'?

Not necessarily but I don't find it offensive.

And I'll try and be more specific when referencing my mother vs other GC people.

OP posts:
PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 18:10

Oh snap. Gc feminists are famously against long jumpers with cartoons on ConfusedWink