‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

Let's just shove everyone into one space and see what happens!
It'll be fun!

No, sorry. I'm sure all the men in for violent rapes, sexual assaults and battery, child pornography, paedophilia and domestic violence will IMMEDIATELY modify their behaviour when presented with a female inmate to share a prison with.
Hell, in fact, let's make them share CELLS. There's no way a crime will happen.
Jesus, I thought I'd seen it all here.
Every day is a school day on Mumsnet.

People go to prison for cruelty to animals sometimes.

Would anyone here advocate that a man in prison for raping sheep, or for torturing cats, be given free access to the prison farm, because the onus was on him to show he'd changed?

now we know they can claim to be us and entire our spaces with a full lunchbox thats an entirely different kettle of jizz now isnt it.

Exactly. But we still were not asked.

I'm not worried about sharing with transwoman, I'm worried about sharing with men. Transwoman think they will be safe in women's spaces but they are fearful of men, who are now allowed into women's spaces.

I think toilets in a supermarket or McDonald’s is more what people were describing but at a wedding surely you are already connected to the other person and given their choices probably know of them in particular. It’s not quite the same thing. I’ve never asked anyone to pass me a paper towel (though it did happen in a movie about women computers at nasa so perhaps whoever brought it up has been swotting up on toilet controversy?).

I think some trans women HAVE been using womens’ spaces for years and doing so quietly and respectfully and we have all learned from this.
However what I will not condone is my very being as a woman being taken away and my woman’s voice silenced and ridiculed.
I get no opportunity to understand their agenda or debate their actions because they shut down any attempt at dialogue. I can only assume that their entire agenda is to silence women and take away our opportunities and what little power we have. Shame on them.

advocating for something which puts other women at greater risk of rape does not make you a good person

Catherina seemed to think asking us what we had in common with incarcerated women was some huge gotcha that would make us upset and uncomfortable. I infer from this that it offends her to think of them as people she has anything in common with.

Therefore it's probably easy for her to have zero empathy for them. Maybe they're unwomen to her?

The onus is on her to deal with this character flaw, not on incarcerated women to suffer rape as a penalty so Catherina can flatter herself that she is an inclusive, progressive person.

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better

Women are obliged to accept increased risk in order to encourage men to be nicer people? Like we are useful object lessons in how not to be a rapist?

We have all seen TW use their sex related ability against women as reported in the media.

For example, Will Thomas was and still is an average male swimmer. He beats women.

Karen White was and still is a male rapist.

These men and their lies are known, @CatherinaJTV why not think of the women who are negatively impacted by male sex advantage as you enjoy your tea?

Er no! Only to a friend.

Hopefully Christina will be back after her tea.

I was trying on a dress in the toilets at a vintage fair (no ‘real’ changing rooms just loo cubicles), came out to look at it in the mirror and a random woman said ‘ah, that dress was made for you.’ Which convinced me even more to buy it.

I didn’t think this exchange was unusual, just casually friendly. Also if this is a male fantasy, it’s pretty fucking vanilla

@TheCurrywurstPrion

I k now several trans young people (both mtf and ftm) every single one has had mental trauma in their lives, mostly a combination or the acrimonious divorce of parents and mental health issues , also alcoholic parent(s), death of parent at puberty. Oh and religious zealots for parents (the only non divorced parents) who believe god will strike down gay people, police and social services had to get involved in that one.

I'm not saying there's no trans in loving 2 parent family homes but I personally see a trend

Oh look.
It's actually very disappointing when the drive-by scolding, though very predictable, ends without any resolution or concrete definitions being given (despite being asked again and again).
We get the inevitable "but I've already answered this", or the "I'm leaving now" etc.

It's a great pity.
But sort of funny.

The house of cards collapses under the weight of its own ridiculousness.

So women only spaces should become mixed spaces and the women that can't used mixed spaces should use single sex spaces? But women are women and some men (based on intangible feelz) so should be let into to women's spaces but the women who don't want them in their spaces can use single sex space, but there aren't any single sex spaces because some men are women? I glad we've cleared that up, what was all the fuss about?

Have you ever worked in retail, Catherina? Did you notice that not everyone is given access to the saferoom?

Surely they should let all employees (almost none of whom will have criminal records because supermarkets don't like employing people with those) have access, because otherwise it's removing the onus from employees not to steal?

Yet, they don't. Because it would be taking a risk with their money. They won't take that risk even if everyone has a clean criminal record. I bet you don't even leave your own money unattended.

So how dare you offer up other people to males convicted of violent offences? Their bodies are not yours.

Why are women worth less than money? Less than the profits at the end of one working day in an urban supermarket?

provide single sex spaces for them?

Female prisons are supposed to be single sex but male prisoners are at present sent there if they say they are women.
So you obviously agree that no prisoners of the male sex no matter their gender identity should be in female prisons? Good to know.

'if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).'

Ah, those tired old TRA arguments which have been disproven time after time.

1. Segregated is not a bad word in the UK. Americans like to use it for emotional effect, but that doesn't work here.

1. Sex-segregated/single-sex facilities are statistically the safest for women.

1. There's nothing wrong with dealing with here-and-now reality instead of airy fairy nonsense about teaching men to be better by destroying single-sex facilities.

1. What WoW violence? How would male or female violence be mitigated by allowing males into female facilities?

A man using a woman only space once and making women feel uncomfortable is one more time than is acceptable.

may I recommend ibuprofen for that cognitive dissonance induced headache @CatherinaJTV ?

advocating for something which puts other women at greater risk of rape does not make you a good person

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated.

the safest spaces for women exclude men (regardless of how they identify)

If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

mm, but while you're working towards utopia, some women will be raped because you've let men into single sex spaces. you good with that?

Provide cubicles, work on prison reform (prevent crime), provide better hospital facilities, provide 1 on 1 counselling, don't socialise men as "boys will be boys" naturally violent offenders.

why do we need to give up single sex spaces first? you seem to be taking a cavalier approach to other women's safety

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Taking the onus off?

My mother was not an object who existed to measure character development in male prisoners.

How about we give male prisoners (in for fraud, maybe) access to your online banking on a tablet? I mean, to do otherwise would take away the onus on them to do better.