‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

@5zeds

I think it was never received a complement on their clothes/makeup from a random in a toilet. What do you want them to do lie and say they have?

But perhaps they could accept other women's experiences are different? Indeed that other women aren't lying? Do you expect me and Mamapep to lie and say "no, this never happens"

@Mamapep of course have your opinion, but it isn't greater than mine, particularly when you want a minority to have rights that infringe existing rights.

I'd like to be younger, but I cannot choose to join a secondary school sixth form. I'd like to be rich, but I cannot help myself to a mansion.

Men may wish to use women's loos to chat about lipstick, but they cannot.

@Mamapep I can’t see why the experience of those on this thread is unworthy of consideration. I’m female and ancient so I expect I’ve used a fair few ladies toilets in all sorts of countries and settings too. It’s all fairly ridiculous anyway. I don’t want trans women to use female toilets (or any female spaces), I’d like them to use the toilets that reflect their sex. I honestly don’t see what the problem is with that. I understand they WANT to use female toilets etc but the answer for me is “no” and I sincerely doubt that there are many more inconvenienced by that than me as the carer of a young man who needs one to one support. Sometimes life is inconvenient and not everyone gets to do what they want.

[quote Enough4me]@Mamapep
"You shouldn’t form your understanding on the experiences of others from mn threads."

Which is what you're asking us to do by saying it's normal for women to get into conversations about makeup and clothes with women, when most of us are saying this hasn't happened (not to me in over 40 years) or is extremely rare and potentially something that happens in a larger social gathering like a wedding.

I don't at all understand your perspective and normalisation of men in women's loos chatting with women.[/quote]
I was talking about my experience only (I’m female, I’m not asking you to normalise anything). My experience is normal, and so is yours. Why can’t both be normal?

@Mamapep
"You shouldn’t form your understanding on the experiences of others from mn threads."

Which is what you're asking us to do by saying it's normal for women to get into conversations about makeup and clothes with women, when most of us are saying this hasn't happened (not to me in over 40 years) or is extremely rare and potentially something that happens in a larger social gathering like a wedding.

I don't at all understand your perspective and normalisation of men in women's loos chatting with women.

most violence in prisons is nt woman on nt woman

Now you are just being silly, Catherine.

Most violence in prisons is by men on men.
Because the vast majority of the prison population is male.

And then there is the fact that transwomen offend at the same rate as men.
Which you have also conveniently ignored.

It doesn’t actually exist.

Sex exists.

Sexuality exists.

This board was titled by MN. The name does not necessarily reflect the opinions of posters.

A woman is an adult human female.

A transwoman is a transwoman.

They are not part of the same subset, because they are different sexes. And always will be. Because you cannot change sex.

if you provide safe spaces, the risk is mitigated. If you put women into segregated spaces, you are taking the onus off the men to be better (plus there is a risk due to WoW violence).

Provide cubicles, work on prison reform (prevent crime), provide better hospital facilities, provide 1 on 1 counselling, don't socialise men as "boys will be boys" naturally violent offenders.

Ah men learning to be better whilst raping, sexually abusing and being violent to women, what is the number of women and girls you think will be acceptable collateral damage in this experiment @CatherinaJTV?

Far from it but it seems quite a niche experience reading the thread.

@CatherinaJTV it's not abnormal here in NI to chat in toilets or occasionally compliment something, (particularly on an evening out, but also church, fair, school function etc), although I know we're sometimes chattier the other regions.

I think it's a bit crazy how you've been jumped on, irrespective of your sex- the scenario doesn't happen ime in a fawning way, maybe just many of us are used to chit chat, I don't know.

Most people I know would still be uncomfortable with a male in the ladies toilets. Transman, not an issue. Because biological sex matters.

@KimikosNightmare

I don’t think anyone is saying they’ve NEVER had a compliment on what they’re wearing. They’re saying they’ve never swapped compliments on beautiful shoes and lipstick shades with a stranger in a public toilet after asking them to pass you paper towels.

Many posters have said that they’ve of course had and given compliments in appropriate situations, but have never had an unknown woman stop them in a public toilet to say ‘what a beautiful lipstick shade’ or ‘what a wonderful outfit.’ And they’ve never stood with wet hands in a public toilet and said ‘please pass me a paper towel fellow woman.’

People don’t really want to engage with that but that’s what people are saying. Nobody’s saying they’ve never had a compliment before.

Funnily enough it's men who rate women isn't it?

So it makes sense if a person commenting in women's loos on other women turns out to be a man.

Women aren't all one smiling being with lipstick, styled hair and socially 'fashionable' clothes. We are unique and while some may like compliments, others may feel unnerved by sudden feedback on our appearance. If someone gave me feedback I would likely give them an odd look, as I dress for me and not to comply or seek a rating.

I think it was never received a complement on their clothes/makeup from a random in a toilet. What do you want them to do lie and say they have?

In case you can't see that image, it says 53% of women in prison experienced child abuse.

84% of them are there for non-violent crime.

What have they done to deserve being locked in with male prisoners?

31% of female offenders spent time in care as children

In fact, children in care have a higher chance of going to prison than they do to university. I hope I do not have to remind women on mumsnet of the repeated care home scandals, where children in care were targeted for abuse by paedophiles? Unsurprisingly, such experiences affect your GCSE results. And then those little girls, survivors of child abuse who've ended up in prison, are offered up on a platter to abusers as adults. And women call themselves progressive for doing so.

There's nothing progressive about it. Othering women from a lower/more marginalised social class (usually the servants and serving girls) and then assigning them as an approved sacrifice for the urges of rapists and abusers of your own social class, so that they'll leave you/your own daughters alone is very traditional, actually.

Do you ask strange people to pass you things in toilets too?

When the toilets thing was mentioned, I did immediately think bar, clubs, party, weddings (I’ve been to weddings where I don’t know anyone except the couple, and also huge weddings with 500+ guests). All spaces where people are dressed up. I don’t think complimenting people in these spaces is unusual

I wouldn’t compliment someone wearing casual clothes, or in a coffee shop toilets, because why would you? But there’s plenty of bathroom-mirror-situations-involving-strangers where I would

Same here.

Is that feeling comfortable as a woman, or feeling comfortable throwing women under a bus. Hard to tell sometimes.