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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can I get a lesbian perspective on something please?

120 replies

GetGenderInTheBin · 25/03/2022 11:38

I'm a straight gender non-conforming woman. For instance, I don't wear high heels, make-up, or push-ups bras.

Since joining the gender debate, I have often been called a "dyke", amongst many other insults. I think I get called this because I am gender non-conforming.

I am currently writing about my experiences as a GC feminist, and some of my writings are poetry. Is it okay for me to use the word "dyke" when referring to myself, in the same way that I might call myself a "TERF", "cunt", or "bitch" (i.e. in a way that is reclaiming the word). Or should words only be reclaimed by those that they're directing aimed at?

Thanks.

OP posts:
CompleteGinasaur · 26/03/2022 12:17

Bugger. That's n***.

CompleteGinasaur · 26/03/2022 12:15

I think some of the difficulty here is that the OP assumes the word 'dyke' is purely experienced by lesbians as an insult. As drhf points out, however, a lot of us have chosen to reclaim the word, to redefine it as someone proud of their sexual, social and romantic identity. If you ventriloquize 'dyke' in this way, using it purely as an insult, you strip away all of the nuance, all of the power we have imbued it with in making it our own. And (I don't know how many times I have to say this) it is not yours to take. You would not (or I hope you would not) ventriloquize n*** in this way. This is exactly the same, a word used to redefine, shame and disempower taken from its original meaning and turned into a source of pride and strength.

Plus I begin to find your original post a little disingenuous; you asked for a lesbian perspective, and you got one ( or a majority, anyway). Does your privilege now entitle you to ignore that perspective because it wasn't the one you wanted?

Adeleskirts · 26/03/2022 10:37

I find this so cringe and stereotypical. You’re gender non conforming as you don’t wear make up a push up bra and heels? How very offensive to all women and deeply shallow minded. Is that really what you see as gender conforming for a woman?

drhf · 26/03/2022 10:31

OP can use that word to narrate her experiences of having it used to her.
OP can use that word in fiction to describe the perspectives and identity of a lesbian character.

OP should not use that word to describe herself because it means lesbian, and OP does not identify as a lesbian.

Lesbians need to have words to describe ourselves, and dyke is one of them. I'm a dyke. My wife is a dyke. My ex-girlfriends (mostly) identify as dykes. The community that supported me as an isolated mixed-up teenager was full of strong dykes I could look up to.

Dykes are women who f?! women and have chosen to reclaim a word used to try to shame them for that. If you don't f?! women, you're not a dyke, and saying you are is taking something that isn't yours.

The parallel here isn't with those seeking to erase the word 'woman'. It's with those seeking to use the word 'woman' about themselves based on a superficial perception of similarity and a false assumption of a shared experience of marginalisation.

Nightwakingmoon · 26/03/2022 10:10

@Innocenta

The reason why it's okay to use words in a poem that aren't okay to use normally is this: the "I" that speaks in poetry isn't directly, literally the writer of the poem. It's often known as the "lyric I". That's why poems are so often borrowed for occasions like weddings and funerals: we all understand that they can express feelings and ideas that go beyond the very specific biographical experience of just one individual.
Yes, exactly this. Poetry and writing aren’t meant to be directly autobiographical and only that. They allow for lots of creative and fictional speakers and worlds.

I have no problem as a lesbian with you using that word OP - words are just words, and if we allow ourselves to gatekeep them and try to say who can or can’t use them based on “identity”, then we’re doing exactly the same as the gender ideologues who believe that words and selves are the same thing, “woman” must be erased if it offends a few people, and “identity” trumps everything else.

Use words how you like, especially in poetry. Others can take offence, or not, or dislike it, or not. We are all able to tell the difference between words and “literal violence”. It’s not “hate speech”.

Innocenta · 26/03/2022 09:57

@KimikosNightmare Exactly. Poems can be anything. Someone can write a poem pretending to be alive in the tenth century if they want. Or pretending to be a man. Anything! It's literature. It's imagination. That's the whole point.

Indeed, restricting it to "you can literally only talk about your biographical experience" seems to me to be restrictive in a harmful way that is reminiscent of the controlling ideologies a lot of women on here criticise.

Innocenta · 26/03/2022 09:55

The reason why it's okay to use words in a poem that aren't okay to use normally is this: the "I" that speaks in poetry isn't directly, literally the writer of the poem. It's often known as the "lyric I". That's why poems are so often borrowed for occasions like weddings and funerals: we all understand that they can express feelings and ideas that go beyond the very specific biographical experience of just one individual.

KimikosNightmare · 26/03/2022 09:53

@felulageller

What are you wanting to do with these poems? If it's just writing it in your own notebook then you can write what you want. If you are submitting it to a magazine, competition or performing it publicly then no I don't think it's appropriate.
Why not? Can't poems be fictitious?

E.g Sylvia Plath was not Jewish and her father was not a Nazi.

ididntevennotice · 26/03/2022 09:51

@GetGenderInTheBin

Okay, I won't use the word.

However, just to clarify how I was using it, here is an excerpt from one of the poems I wrote:

Name-calling, name-calling, name-calling,
It hurt me at first, but now it's my calling,

You call me a bitch? Yes, I'm a bitch.
You call me a TERF? Yes, I'm a TERF.
You call me a dyke? Yes, I'm a dyke.
You call me a cow? Yes, I'm a cow.

Look at me now. Your tricks don't work.
I'm high up here while you shout from the dirt.

Another clarification that changes nothing. We knew what you meant. It still does not work. You are still not a lesbian.

SapphosRock · 26/03/2022 09:31

I can imagine your poem as a rap OP.

Still not convinced that dyke works.

It would be like Eminem rapping 'you call me a N? Yes I'm a N'

felulageller · 26/03/2022 09:30

What are you wanting to do with these poems? If it's just writing it in your own notebook then you can write what you want. If you are submitting it to a magazine, competition or performing it publicly then no I don't think it's appropriate.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 26/03/2022 00:05

No. You can't use it. I'm gender non-confirming and bisexual and I wouldn't use it because I'm not a lesbian. It just isn't authentic or true to use it (even for me if I was in a same sex relationship it wouldn't be true to use it). It would be like reclaiming a racist term for a racial group you don't belong to.

5zeds · 25/03/2022 23:44

My gender has never been questioned despite never wearing heels, make up or dresses.

KimikosNightmare · 25/03/2022 23:39

Surely the OP is gender non conforming ?
In our world to conform to the gender (=sex role stereotype) includes a particular style of personal presentation which comprises make up, a proper hairstyle, shaved body hair, dresses rather than trousers and high heels rather than trainers

If she isn't presenting like this then in appearance at least she is gender non conforming

Yes, I'm not quite following the negative responses . Posting "I'm gender non conforming- never wear / do etc, etc" is a pretty bog- standard statement usually.

5zeds · 25/03/2022 23:27

I find it an odd idea. Dh has often had racist slurs thrown at him that don’t reflect his ethnicity. He doesn’t pretend to be from the culture/background they imagine he is.

KimikosNightmare · 25/03/2022 23:21

@achillesshield

I'm a gender conforming woman. I never wear high heels, make up or push up bras either. By conflating these things with gender, we're just reinforcing harmful stereotypes.
Appearance wise I'm ultra gender conforming. I rarely wear high heels and have never owned a push up bra.

That comment just comes across as so belittling of other women - you know all those silly, airheads who bother about that sort of stuff.

cunt", or "bitch" (i.e. in a way that is reclaiming the word

There's been endless threads about "reclaiming" cunt. Not sure how one can "reclaim" bitch.

PatterPaws · 25/03/2022 23:05

*I'm a straight gender non-conforming woman. For instance, I don't wear high heels, make-up, or push-ups bras.
*
Why on earth would avoiding heels, lipstick and a push-up bra make you gender non-conforming?

That's the most ludicrous thing to say!

supersonicspider · 25/03/2022 22:59

I don't wear high heels, make up or push up bra either.... I'm just a regular woman. No need to label me!!

Newgrly · 25/03/2022 22:45

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GetGenderInTheBin · 25/03/2022 22:39

Okay, I won't use the word.

However, just to clarify how I was using it, here is an excerpt from one of the poems I wrote:

Name-calling, name-calling, name-calling,
It hurt me at first, but now it's my calling,

You call me a bitch? Yes, I'm a bitch.
You call me a TERF? Yes, I'm a TERF.
You call me a dyke? Yes, I'm a dyke.
You call me a cow? Yes, I'm a cow.

Look at me now. Your tricks don't work.
I'm high up here while you shout from the dirt.

OP posts:
CompleteGinasaur · 25/03/2022 22:36

Historically it was always a word for the guys, and for the older guys at that; gay was for those who wanted to fight to change and ultimately join the system - ironically typified by Stonewall. Queer only came back into rebellious vogue after most of the battles had been won, I think. It's probably cynical of me to think it's easy to reject the work of the previous generation as conformist and assimilationist when they've already put all the work in and you're not now going to get arrested for raising an eyebrow at the wrong someone. I always found the new queer theorists' contempt for those of us who marched and worked and protested back in the day more than a little bit ungrateful..

StillWeRise · 25/03/2022 22:11

mmm, to me it's something that was directed at gay men primarily, especially historically and I feel it's theirs to reclaim if they choose. I also see it being more aligned to trans activism.

Innocenta · 25/03/2022 22:08

@StillWeRise It varies massively, even within a marriage. My wife and I are incredibly demographically close (same age, social class, etc) and yet she's fine with 'queer' and I don't like it. I wouldn't prohibit it from being used or anything like that, but I don't personally feel it's reclaimed for me.

Brefugee · 25/03/2022 21:38

Frankly? I'm more interested in why you think not wearing a push up bra is gender non-conforming. I have massive boobs and i have never worn a push up bra. I sometimes wear high heels, usually docs. I rarely wear make up but when i do it's red lipstick and lots and lots of mascara. I like ballet, and i like playing with power tools. Am i only part-time gender non-conforming?

it's all quite strange.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 25/03/2022 21:22

@StillWeRise

Surely the OP is gender non conforming ? In our world to conform to the gender (=sex role stereotype) includes a particular style of personal presentation which comprises make up, a proper hairstyle, shaved body hair, dresses rather than trousers and high heels rather than trainers. If she isn't presenting like this then in appearance at least she is gender non conforming. On the dyke issue I agree it's something you can't appropriate. I'd be interested to hear what lesbians think of the word 'queer' ? I know a lesbian/bi (female!) couple who use that word and it always makes me flinch, maybe because I'm so old.
I think there are lots of different takes on what 'queer' means. It's not the word for me, but I did go through a phase of using it when tbh 'lesbian' felt quite a difficult label to wear, and possibly when i wanted to keep my options open for romantic involvement with men (but bi definitely didn't fit as it didn't reflect my reality).

I think at the moment it seems to imply an important allegiance with the trans liberation movement, in the same way that the suffragette colours have become so connected with GC feminism. But even before then, 'queer' suggested to me an alignment with certain politics which i wasn't quite signed up to.

I guess I also don't feel that it's my slur to reclaim, the way I feel ok using dyke.

I also think it has reached a point of meaninglessness as a label, which i guess suits some people but not others.

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