Page 2 | "The answer Is Mumsnet, I believe"

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 2022-03-24T10:09:01+00:00

This is a good thread with contributions from Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman in response to 3 men who are perplexed by the level of "TERF representation in the UK elite". It's a strong argument for the importance of MN's campaign about the Online Harms Bill. I hope Justine and MNHQ are proud. Sarah Pedersen identified MN as a subaltern counterpublic in a recent paper (riffing off Nancy Fraser) [[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland]] The term subaltern counterpublic was conceptualized by Nancy Fraser (1997) as *“parallel discursive arenas where members of subordinated social groups invent and circulate counterdiscourses, which in turn permit them to formulate oppositional interpretations of their identities, interests, and needs” (p. 81).* [[https://counterpublic.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/an-introduction-to-counterpublics/]]

Artichokeleaves · 13/04/2022 20:20

That is a very well written article.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/04/2022 19:54

What a well put together article. Really thoughtful analysis.

Fenlandia · 13/04/2022 19:52

I don't know who that writer is but to have that in the NYT is a big deal

Delphinium20 · 13/04/2022 19:21

Witches, Ross Douthat has been paying attention! Check this article out...he's found our arguments and is taking our side.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220413173054/www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220413173054/www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html

VelvetChairGirl · 25/03/2022 12:13

I believe that those who call us TERFS are bigots.

of course bigots by nature, if you ever point it out to them you can almost smell the burning brain matter thru the screen as they try and process it, fact is I have yet to speak to a single one of them that even understand what the word bigot means lets alone has any self reflection.

And amercia is a horribly backwards country with womens rights, we are not great but they are bloody awful, 2 weeks maternity leave, sentencing women for murder who miscarry, their attitude to abortion is shameful, they are at least 50 years behind us on womens rights and about 80+ years behind places like Scandinavia.

VeryLongBeeeeep · 25/03/2022 12:03

What do you mean? Which rights do trans people have in the UK that they don't have in the US?

I don't know every single difference, not least because of the variation in US state laws but in the UK transpeople are protected against discrimination in the workplace under the EA2010, they have the same rights to access healthcare as anyone else...these are not givens in every US state.

Abra1d1 · 25/03/2022 11:57

@MangyInseam

I think mumsnet has been a coordination point, for sure. And while anonymity has downsides in the kinds of beahviour it seems to create at times, on this issue it allowed people to talk much more openly than they felt they could in places where they were named. At one time, really contentious social issues were talked about more openly in certain real, public places. Even when I was in high school I remember really serious discussions on abortion, that were much more sophisticated than what I see in the press today. And also in universities. And the same for other issues - universities have stopped being places where people can really dig their teeth into such questions, work out the problems. Which happens here, within the discussion where there is disagreement difficult problems get raked over, worked out, elucidated. But I think only because we can't really threaten to call people out with all the modern consequences.

That being said, I do think there are other issues. The fact that in the US political partisanship is so reflexive is a problem. Here in Canada it's also that many of us reflexively define ourselves against Americans. We are also ill served in terms of our press, mainly because of our small numbers - there just isn't the multiplicity of editorial views.

And then I would also say, there is a lot that I suspect comes down to the different political traditions. The US, Canada, places like Australia - our politics was born in the Enlightenment, at a time when people began to believe it was possible to construct a whole new political order. Liberalism was born there. While the UK has a liberal tradition it was built on top of a well established conservative tradition that has a kind of continuity or development that goes back 1000 years. Even the left in the UK is rooted in that tradition which I think has very different foundations than the politics of the Enlightenment. It's based on a much more organic sense of the person and family and maybe place - less abstract.

The British system seems more inclined to take a Chesterton't fence approach. And also it may be significant that in places like Canada and the US, documents like the Constitution can over-ride the will of the House, as can the courts, in a way that is not the case in the UK.

I also think colonialism plays a role in places like Canada but I am not really sure what the link is.

Very interesting take, thank you.

heldinadream · 25/03/2022 11:55

@AuntyFungal

I stay for the sporn ^^

Nominative determinism, right there.

CharlieParley · 25/03/2022 11:35

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

The problem is, many British young people don't either. They seem to be importing their politics and ideology wholesale from the USA and have very little idea about anything that happened here, the law, political (and religious) landscape and culture before the US-based social media and streaming services colonised their minds.

I've commented on this in a very different area to do with the differences in ingredients and the understanding of different ovens in the US and what it means when people are baking those recipes in the UK. People with no understanding of the differences argue with me all the time because it's just never occurred to them that the basics of egg sizes, the protein of flour content, the fat content of butter and various creams etc. is different.

Stuff as basic as that flies past them. With all the differences in the constituent states of the US (state v. federal) for various rights, I have no optimism that they can understand the cultural and other differences you outline for the UK.

You can add their palate to that as well. When we first moved to the States, not knowing about any of this, first food shop we bought bread, butter, cheese and ham to make quick sandwiches for the kids.

Made a sandwich. Couldn't eat it. The salt content in each of these was so high, the kids were spitting it back out. Same with cake recipes. Sugar content way too high.

Of course, once you know about this difference, it's easy to navigate it - buy unsalted, adjust the recipes etc.

But the first step is knowing that there is a difference and I found that very many Americans do not know. And where they do become aware of a difference, whatever area of life it is in, many assume that the American way is the superior way. Often not even considering for a second that it might not be.

So, yes, on this debate we are encountering the same basic ignorance on the differences in equality law. American commenters like those three not even stopping for a second to consider that UK law may in fact offer superior protection to American law. Or that we have here two laws interacting in complicated ways that need to be navigated if we change one of these laws. And that interaction needs to be considered and debated.

On Mumsnet and everywhere else. Because these laws affect us all.

Original poster

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 25/03/2022 10:01

@HemanOrSheRa

I remember the days of MN being a radicalisation portal

.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3357096-Razor-blades-and-stickers-again?pg=1

OP posts:

HemanOrSheRa · 25/03/2022 00:20

I remember the days of MN being a radicalisation portal .

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/03/2022 00:19

@AuntyFungal

I stay for the sporn ^^

There is a very disturbing and noticeable overlap between FWR posters and Sporner Corner posters I've noticed. That's a curious and worrisome Venn diagram right there.

Correlation or causation? As an evolutionary psychologist I'd say an urge to groom (sporn) may correlate with an urge to care (feminism). Also, being impervious to pain when healing is necessary.

Squishmael · 25/03/2022 00:08

@doublemonkey

I started reading mumsnet because of fat balls.

There, I said it, I won't be shamed anymore!

Me too! That was the first thread I read here!

MangyInseam · 24/03/2022 21:57

I think mumsnet has been a coordination point, for sure. And while anonymity has downsides in the kinds of beahviour it seems to create at times, on this issue it allowed people to talk much more openly than they felt they could in places where they were named. At one time, really contentious social issues were talked about more openly in certain real, public places. Even when I was in high school I remember really serious discussions on abortion, that were much more sophisticated than what I see in the press today. And also in universities. And the same for other issues - universities have stopped being places where people can really dig their teeth into such questions, work out the problems. Which happens here, within the discussion where there is disagreement difficult problems get raked over, worked out, elucidated. But I think only because we can't really threaten to call people out with all the modern consequences.

That being said, I do think there are other issues. The fact that in the US political partisanship is so reflexive is a problem. Here in Canada it's also that many of us reflexively define ourselves against Americans. We are also ill served in terms of our press, mainly because of our small numbers - there just isn't the multiplicity of editorial views.

And then I would also say, there is a lot that I suspect comes down to the different political traditions. The US, Canada, places like Australia - our politics was born in the Enlightenment, at a time when people began to believe it was possible to construct a whole new political order. Liberalism was born there. While the UK has a liberal tradition it was built on top of a well established conservative tradition that has a kind of continuity or development that goes back 1000 years. Even the left in the UK is rooted in that tradition which I think has very different foundations than the politics of the Enlightenment. It's based on a much more organic sense of the person and family and maybe place - less abstract.

The British system seems more inclined to take a Chesterton't fence approach. And also it may be significant that in places like Canada and the US, documents like the Constitution can over-ride the will of the House, as can the courts, in a way that is not the case in the UK.

I also think colonialism plays a role in places like Canada but I am not really sure what the link is.

samsalmon · 24/03/2022 21:11

@doublemonkey

I'm still waiting for my extreme right funding by the way. Has anyone else received theirs yet?

If you pay by direct debit, it’ll automatically appear in your bank account, otherwise you have to fill out a special form. HTH 😁

AuntyFungal · 24/03/2022 21:08

I stay for the sporn ^^

terryleather · 24/03/2022 20:59

Come now, we’re not monsters.

Speak for yourself!

PrelateChuckles · 24/03/2022 20:53

He mens well indeed

Pawtriarchal · 24/03/2022 20:47

It’s like they’re annoyed with the sex class that must not be named meeting and discussing and organising. But how do they know what we identify as? Do they know the difference in some way? They seem so annoyed with the AFAB people. My AFAB brain is very confused.

Sexnotgender · 24/03/2022 20:45

@terryleather

I would like to force feed those three fools the Notorious Weetabix Banana Horror until they learned the error of their ways.

Sorry not sorry.

Come now, we’re not monsters.

Pawtriarchal · 24/03/2022 20:45

Hadley is on fire in that thread 👏🏻

Waitwhat23 · 24/03/2022 20:42

Notorious Banana Weetabix Horror or this...

"Weetabix on Twitter: "Why should bread have all the fun, when there's Weetabix? Serving up @HeinzUK Beanz on bix for breakfast with a twist. #ItHasToBeHeinz #HaveYouHadYourWeetabix t.co/R0xq4Plbd0" / Twitter" mobile.twitter.com/weetabix/status/1359074254789165059?lang=en

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 24/03/2022 20:33

@terryleather

I would like to force feed those three fools the Notorious Weetabix Banana Horror until they learned the error of their ways.

Sorry not sorry.

That's going a bit far, surely.

terryleather · 24/03/2022 20:29

I would like to force feed those three fools the Notorious Weetabix Banana Horror until they learned the error of their ways.

Sorry not sorry.

Phobiaphobic · 24/03/2022 20:18

I do wonder what Justine et al make of it.

I do hope Justine et al are extremely fucking proud of themselves. raises wine glass