"The answer Is Mumsnet, I believe"

Previous #1, now #2 is attached.

Thank you Mumsnet.

That is interesting, thank you.Dare I ask what the most liked comment was?

That is heartening to here, Delphinium20.

Just wanted to share the number 2 and number 3 most liked comments in this article (from an overwhelmingly left-wing readership):

"Thank you, especially for the final paragraph. I'm a liberal Democrat and a gender critical feminist who lives in the kind of place so blue it refers to itself as a "people's republic. When I've expressed outre views that children can't meaningfully consent to sterilizing hormones, that all JKR did was state a fact about menstruation, the post-pubertal males should not wrestle against natal females I've been shouted down even by close decades-long friends as an irredeemable bigot. The left my ideological home is so blatantly wrong about basic factual issues in this debate that it makes me wonder what other pieties I've swallowed unquestioningly without critical thought. It's like the mirror image of the right's insane climate change denial (of course with far lower but still important stakes)."

"I recently changed my voter registration over this issue. I've always voted straight ticket for Democrats, but the party has lost me over this issue. Women who voice any concerns whatsoever are told to sit down and shut up. I don't tolerate misogyny from the right, I won't tolerate it from the left either."

Welcome @SportyGirlsMum!!! I've got teen girls who love sports so I care a lot about men in girls' sports. Great to have you!!

Eek...think I misunderstood that to mean swollen testicles!

Dammit, Abhanmoor, now I won't be able to look the lad at the pet shop in the face, after having asked "Have you got fat balls?" They'd had some kind of supply problem. The birds were hungry. Oh damn ....

We are so lucky to have this space
Thank you Mumsnet

I'm new here so this is my first comment. The New York Times opinion piece is well argued and I felt a small sense of hope reading it. The comments are, at a guess, approx 97% against the article, but I'm hoping there are many people who read it and are thinking about it without commenting. I haven't seen the Twitter response because I removed myself from there recently as I find it too toxic. Thanks to the OP for starting the thread.

What a good piece that is (I know nothing about Ross douthat)

[quote Delphinium20]Witches, Ross Douthat has been paying attention! Check this article out...he's found our arguments and is taking our side.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220413173054/www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220413173054/www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html[/quote]
Thanks.
A bit of a side- musing...Apart from the main content, I'm somewhat intrigued by the Rorschach test which he indicates aids understanding of the 'culture wars', but then as far as I can see doesn't allude to again. To me it's a rather lovely representation of something important.... but what on earth else could it be interpreted as by people on other sides of the 'war'?

Some brilliant posts.

A further problem is the way the UK has imported the personalisation of politics. I am old enough to remember being shocked at the US approach to Presidential elections, with TV commercials laying into the personality of the rival. Whilst in the UK we changed government every so often, but elections were about policies not personalities and the papers analysed these.

I am sure the mirror exists in Surrey golf clubs, but I mainly see affluent left leaning educated London type s slam into just about any Tory politician, though women get it worse than men. Vile, evil, bigot are three common words. I am no fan of Boris but believe he got vaccine development right and is equally correct on sport and trans. Almost enough to get me labelled as a right wing fascist. Personality not politics. “I read in the Guardian” is not a substitute for individual critical thinking. The ability to read a paper with a different editorial line and both accept that you will agree with some things and be confident on why you disagree with others, is a good skill, and not least help understanding of why others hold different views.

MN for me has been access to a range of views, experiences and backgrounds. I hope my own attitudes and approaches have broadened from the opportunity to hear those of others. FWR is particularly important, with rational and intelligent posters quietly setting out the reasoning behind their views, particularly to our regular and intransigent ploppers. There is nothing more illuminating than male sounding posters coming on a thread telling women what they should think, and women coming back with good and informed arguments.

to the MN mods for all you have done to keep the debate open.

Yes. The piece is very even handed and while he has clear position, he is not dismissive of other perspectives, but seeks to set them out in full including where he thinks those adopting those positions are coming from in a sympathetic way, without sacrificing nuance. It is a really good piece.

In the short run our goals are the same, but in the longer run they are opposite.

I think he acknowledges as much in his piece? After the comedy of the initial tweet this was a wholly rational, calm and clear piece and that final para has a killer blow. Great to see in the NYT after all their bullshit and wonder what the response has been?

Thanks for the share.

I want the Jeff Tiedrich quote on a tshirt

As others have noted here, the situation is hundred times worse in the US than in the UK. The Democratic Party is completely in the trans women are women in every possible aspect camp, and any attempt to address the problems that come from clashing rights cause ostracism and canceling.

The way out of this situation is likely to be much longer than in European countries, with many more individuals who later regret getting bilateral mastectomies and testosterone shots before they are even able to vote. The private nature of the health care system makes things worse, because the financial motives are much greater there, and the initial political polarisation makes measured debates extremely unlikely to happen.

The National Public Radio (closest to the BBC in some ways, and usually thought of as producing very good, wholesome programs for children and also good documentaries), something all granola-eating and Birkenstock-wearing Liberals there support, recently published this book review:

www.npr.org/2022/03/14/1086399119/in-manhunt-a-virus-turns-anyone-with-enough-testosterone-into-a-feral-beast

It is a fevered dream (or nightmare) about a future dystopia where TERFs get their skulls cracked by trans women and JK Rowling dies in a fire with all her supporters. The author is a trans woman.

Ross Douthat is a very conservative Catholic right-wing commentator. Not my favourite person. But as is the case in the UK, the right fight for the word they need to keep biological women down, while we fight for that same word to exist so that we can fight their attempts to re-subjugate us. In the short run our goals are the same, but in the longer run they are opposite.

Interesting article. Thank you for link k.

That's a powerful (and accurate) ending:
we have been running an experiment on trans-identifying youth without good or certain evidence, inspired by ideological motives rather than scientific rigor, in a way that future generations will regard as a grave medical-political scandal.
Which means that if you are a liberal who believes as much already, but you don’t feel comfortable saying it, your silence will eventually become your regret .