Boris has nailed colours to mast

And there is the ingratitude to, and disregard for, the legions of boring, old non-trans, middle-aged and older women who have collectively given millions of hours to envelope-stuffing and doorstep conversations. I suspect that Labour will find that the green-haired shouty mob aren't quite as committed to the hard graft as they are to silencing women on Twitter. Social media is changing political campaigning, but it still requires a lot of boring grunt work. The Tories will still have women to do that.

Zillamop, when was that radio interview on please ?

And by the way - for any person reading this who has an interest in the Labour Party - I have formed a group of women and am sharing this whole debate including Labour ridiculous position. They are all peaking one by one.

I have NEVER voted Tory but will do at the next election on this issue alone. It’s too important for my daughter.

As someone said on the Mumsnet trending on twitter thread:

If men can say they are women and women have to believe them - it's over

And as someone said upthread here IIRC:

I don't want to find out how much further this agenda wants to go

Indeed.

Not sure how reliable the polls are but Kantar yesterday had the Tories and Labour neck and neck at 36%. Data collected last week. BJ making scientific sense at PMQ will only have helped him.

This is still a niche issue when it comes to actual swinging votes (most people I know understand perfectly well what a woman is but are not as aware of the policy issues that arise from definition A versus definition B).

But even if this issue only gets BJ a few hundred thousand votes, it's not good for Labour, who are struggling to beat the Tories even on Starmer's very best day. Which is because he's a bit of a melt.

I'm sorry but I don't think that will go well.

as midlifecrash said, "it means the damage this is doing to Labour has been noticed"

It's not really just about 'voting for Johnson', or not. The Tory party is the only major party where I could join, state my GC views, say I wanted to be politically active in my community and not be treated as a pariah.

Political participation isn't just about holding your nose and voting. How can you even consider voting for a party where your actual beliefs, lawfully expressed, would see you doxxed, bullied, unable to freely stand for election, unable to attend your own conference, and subject to motion after motion declaring you a bigot?

But when Labour did have a leader committed to those values, and a policy platform based on them, so many were adamant they couldn't vote for such a "loony left" and needed to wait for the Labour party to become moderate and trustworthy and professional again. Well here it is - great. We can't have it both ways. The electorate is either willing to take on radical change or they get the same sh slightly watered down.

I don't think it's as simple as more of less left wing. There just isn't a simple line there.

Yes, there would, at least on paper but maybe really, have been more social programs funneling money down.

But as far as the big, real leftist kind of projects, with vibrant autonomous communities and real jobs at the other end? They still reined in Corbyn in terms of his real leftist principles in terms of the EU, and lots of those former Labour voters went Tory as a result. A "more left" party that calls people concerned about movement of labour bigots? Come on! And the focus on identity politics among Momentum types was even worse than the rest of the LP, again, not traditionally leftist.

So you had a situation where those who were worried about spending and some of their more collectivist political ideas were turned off, but it also wasn't actually all that appealing to those who wanted a real left wing government.

Liz Truss is an asset to the Tories on gender ideology. She was quite happy to go on Radio 4 and say to Nick Robinson 'Women do have vaginas, Nick'

Keir Starmer can't even define the 2 sexes.

Is Boris Johnson on record as ever having defined the 2 sexes?

Some people are very casual with giving away other people's rights this can not be stressed enough

Isn't that the truth.
I'll never forgive those who campaigned and voted for Brexit for stripping me and my children of all our rights as EU citizens.

My point about university fees wasn't about how they'd been hiked to be honest, I do think some fees are fair. It was more that Labour were the first government to actively encourage my generation into university with the promise of graduate jobs and a better life, knowing full well that that wasn't the case and they've just done it to massage unemployment figures without any thought to the fallout on the students who discover they're overqualified but can't earn enough to live. Yes, successive governments have followed suit but Labour started that particular shit show.
I'm not entirely sure people want a more left wing labour though. I mean, sure young idealistic new voters, but as a country we tend to be more moderate. I imagine that the Tories are perceived to get less shit because they are somewhat self serving but readily adapt to be central yet have some progressive stances.

I do agree the system is fucked but considering what most of the female labour MPs come out with, bar Duffield, I'm not sure female representation would help that much.

This is my hill... I'd have been open to other parties but they are all pretty coalesced on central ground... This is crucial for women and the most vulnerable women... I'm fed up being silent... Give me a proper vote in this... I don't believe men are marginalized in their choices... Go on burn me have no more shits to give

@fifteentoes Jesus. All he said was that biology is important. Not even ANY statement of policy, intention of concrete law changes or anything. Not that you could trust a word of it anyway if he did, mind, but he didn't

It was just refreshing to hear a politician say it. I don't understand why the other parties seem to be tying themselves in knots by denying biology?

Some people are very casual with giving away other people's rights this can not be stressed enough

Jesus. All he said was that biology is important. Not even ANY statement of policy, intention of concrete law changes or anything. you are right, but it's got so bad we are reduced to scavenging for crumbs.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Yours is one pont of view I have considerable sympathy with.

I'm not sure I agree about the previous Labour government - despite its considerable failings, it was demonstrably and measurably less bad in numerous ways than the current Tory one. You mention tuition fees just for one example - I agree and opposed them. But those fees are now three times higher than when Labour left office. If (as we agree) they were bad, how is that not three times as bad? Similar comparisons could be made about other issues, although obviously I can't speak for your particular situation at the time.

But as for Starmer and the current leadership, yes. You're right to be skeptical about what they'll actually do better. He lied through his teeth to get the Labour leadership on the promise of unifying the party (ha ha), and since has been thoroughly tepid in standing up to the Tories' abuse. There's no evidence of any commitment to genuine leftwing values.

But when Labour did have a leader committed to those values, and a policy platform based on them, so many were adamant they couldn't vote for such a "loony left" and needed to wait for the Labour party to become moderate and trustworthy and professional again. Well here it is - great. We can't have it both ways. The electorate is either willing to take on radical change or they get the same sh** slightly watered down.

Labour can't win this way because the two demands being levelled at them are directly contrary so they can't possibly satisfy both. What's bizarre is that people don't seem to have any such demands of the Tories, even when they're even worse.

The system's completely f*ed in terms of delivering anything approaching genuine democracy, IMO. The only thing that could do that (and, to get back to the point, what would unquestionably be the best thing for a new party to represent women's sex-based rights) is proportional representation.

My safe seat MP is Crispin Blunt so I have no idea how I can vote, he’s certainly not a Tory who thinks that women matter.

Crispin Blunt is very TWAW as well as being a complete knob so don't vote for him!