Boris has nailed colours to mast

Labour need to get their act sorted rather than expect the electorate to sort their act for them.

This is it in a nutshell. There are people who seem to think that, despite labour not even entertaining their concerns and actively trying to silence them, they will still on an individual level somehow manage to convince labour of the harms when they are in power.

I admire the confidence in their individual power but I think they overestimate their power to influence once the deed is done.

I don't care if Labour see the issue or not. People who have so much contempt for women that they will trot out 'TWAW because the meaning of the word has changed but I can't explain what I mean by that - as nearly the whole front bench does - are not suitable people to be in government and never will be. They have ruled themselves out.

All I care about is keeping them out of power so my daughters have a hope of growing up safe and not being lied to about the nature of reality by their own government.

If Labour do get a kicking, the chances that it will be attributed to this issue alone (or even as the main issue) are realistically nil.

I don't understand this argument. People on this thread are saying that the only reason Boris is saying what he's saying is because he can sense there are votes in it. Are the Conservatives that much more politically aware and sensitive that they can read the political climate better? Because that's what you're actually saying. And if you believe that, then surely Labour need to get their act sorted rather than expect the electorate to sort their act for them.

So all you will achieve is to give the green light to a party which will carry on with its current misogynist policies.

Well that is what you are effectively doing by voting for labour. You are saying you condone men erasing women.

And objectively, yes there are misogynistic people in the conservatives, but as mentioned upthread many are not and are actually shining a light on this.

I think some people need to realise that Boris is not the party. No, he's not a man you'd generally trust to even water your plants when you are away, but he is one man.

And the Tories have not(as far as I know) produced any specifically misogynistic policies recently. Indirectly, yes, poverty impacts women disproportionately, but Labour have an actual wanting to dismantle women's rights which is a party line and objective.

And again, I see little evidence Labour are the party of the poor. Yes that is what their pr says, but when you actually examine both parties over a longer time period they have good points and bad.

Again. I have said it numerous times but I am not sure it's as black and white as 'bad guys, good guys'.

But in the short term it will give labour a kicking and maybe then they will sort there shit out

If Labour do get a kicking, the chances that it will be attributed to this issue alone (or even as the main issue) are realistically nil. So all you will achieve is to give the green light to a party which will carry on with its current misogynist policies.

I'm not convinced Boris and his cronies give a shiny shit about any of that

Not do they care about other feminist fights. I suspect some of them think women's suffrage was a bad move

Voting Tory as a feminist feels very much like wanting to stay with an abuser because he buys flowers sometimes

Agree with all of this and I'm still voting Tory.
Even if labour came out right now and said women are ahf and they need and deserve single sex spaces in some areas of life, I wouldnt believe them. It's more likely though that labour will come out with this a few weeks before the election, hoping to gain our vote, then let us down if we vote them in.
I want an end to this madness and I doubt boris will bring it to an end, he will see that he can keep us on a knife edge for some time and I won't appreciate that at all. But in the short term it will give labour a kicking and maybe then they will sort there shit out.
Until that time I'll vote Tory.

Rosie Duffield is almost certainly in broad agreement with Liz Truss and Kemi Badenoch on this issue. But equally certainly, as a Labour MP, will disagree with them on others.

The big difference is that Rosie is not likely to be made shadow equalities minister any time soon.

The Labour Party policy consensus on this issue is clear and the Tory one is evolving fast. They are quite different. Drilling down a bit it feels like Labour policy, and their approach to Rosie, is driven by young activists. Sort of student union politics. In contrast Tory policies will tend to reflect the preferences of voters in the shires. Grown ups, albeit conservative grown ups. The choice then is - who would you prefer to run the country.

Next election I'll be voting Tory for the first time. Purely for their stance on this issue.

What concerns me a lot is how much more this could be taken by Labour

Once you buy into the ideology language gets lost - women as a term gets dropped and spaces to talk about it too

It seems crazy we get drum stuff we do but I remember being very emotional re HoL speeches on maternity bill and importance of words and rights

Without a push against it Labour could take it much further

That’s my position too. I understand there are TWAW Tory mp’s. It would be weird if there wasn’t as it is a valid position to take ( even if I disagree). I don’t want to shut them down at all. But there are also a growing number of TWANW Tory mp’s free to argue against gender ideology without being physically threatened like labour mp Rosie duffield.
Tory’s are generally a more grown up party imo and they allow diversity of opinion.Labour are authoritarian and not deep thinkers like all authoritarian movements. You outsource your thinking to your leaders.
Now that Boris has spoken of the rights conflict, other Tory mp’s can say “ I agree with Boris” ( or don’t agree) but the debate is out there.
Labour will get stuck on this issue come election time like Russian tanks in Ukrainian mud. It’s inevitable. Hence why I don’t understand their position on this and can only assume they are full paid up supporters of gender ideology.

Agree Ova and Sleep

There's a difference between individual Tory MPs being TRAs and it being the position of the whole party with all MPs being pressured to agree (Labour).

I've written before about why I don't think the Tories are particularly great on upholding women's rights given the open goal Labour have served them but at least they allow their MPs freedom of thought and speech on the topic.

Like any party there have always been a range of opinions within the Tory party. It is where the consensus is formed that matters, and the policy that ends up in the manifesto.

A good number of Tory MPs have stuck their heads above the parapet and articulated GC views, and started pushing back on some of the Stonewall influence within Government. David TC Davis started the ball rolling, with Liz Truss, Miriam Cates, Kemi Badenoch, and Jackie Doyle-Price using their Ministerial or Committee influence to move things along. Their male colleagues seem, finally to understand that this is an issue that matters to voters, and are starting to follow their lead. Now, apparently, including Boris. Rishi appears not to have grasped the issue, and why it matters, but he will get there. (Because he is ambitious.)

The “What is a Woman” interview line that is guaranteed to cause Labour politicians to squirm seems to have forced male Tory MPs who have no interest in the issue at all to pick a side.

There are some dyed in the wool TWAW MPs with key positions on LGBTQ++++ committees and who presumably caused Theresa May to embark on GRA reform, thinking it was an easy and progressive win. But as an understanding develops that this is an important issue for voters, the Tory policy can be expected to reflect majority voter opinion.

So far Labour has offered making misogyny a hate crime and TWAW. That, plus their penchant for authoritarian overreach would be a disaster for the online bill.

Mumsnet would be gone.

Think it can't happen? I think it could.

I like to think i'm fairly open minded on my views but this guy went far far further than anything Labour have suggested.

Full on trans rights, same as any other group.

I will wait and see what each parties manifesto says on these matters before making up my mind.

There’s no rule that anyone has to vote Tory (or for anyone other party, or vote at all) on this one issue just because they dislike Labour. ‘No self respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her sex.’ They’re ALL ignoring our sex.

The legal challenges and grassroots campaigns have all been crowdfunded by women like us, the Cass review is commissioned and funded by the NHS..not the government.. what am I missing here ?

Kicking the GRA reforms off into the long grass is not a victory for women’s rights given to us by the Tories. It’s not a protection. It’s keeping a visceral threat as currency, dangling it as a bargaining chip over us. Any future government or this one, could put it back on the table at any time.

Fuck that. That’s not supporting us. Thats the government preferring to avoid a pile on from TRAs that they think would make them look bad. Not touching the GRA is leaving all the existing problems in place for god knows how much longer, which if you’re a detransitioned woman legally unable to remove your GRC, for example, is pretty urgent to resolve. Which if you’re a woman wanting to speak out about women’s rights, can result in serious personally-directed trouble literally coming to your door. It’s not democratic.

I’m curious why anyone on here would feel so reassured by so little? Is #begratefulforcrumbs the new #bekind?

To me it’s an odd hill for labour to die on. Why are they so invested in gender ideology and all the harm that will bring to women and girls that they are willing to risk electoral suicide?

And not just women and girls, many faiths will not be comfortable with a man sharing a space with a women. Have labour councillors of faith shared their views?

To me it’s an odd hill for labour to die on. Why are they so invested in gender ideology and all the harm that will bring to women and girls that they are willing to risk electoral suicide? If they care about helping women and girls then they would reject gender ideology not embrace it.
I actually Keir is not trying to fudge the issue when he tells us it’s complicated. I think he actually buys into it all and that is worrying to me. Worse than partygate etc. I dislike ideological leaders of whatever stripe. I prefer pragmatism generally.
I also dislike labour’s approach to the online harm bill much like their approach to lockdown, they want more
They have a very authoritarian nature recently and I will not vote for that.

If he recognises there is political capital in supporting womens rights, it is the best chance we have

And when there’s political capital in something damaging to women? What happens then?

I disagree. It was part of a bigger answer to this question:

"I welcome the important interim report from Dr Hilary Cass in which she highlights the need for more research into why so many young girls are presenting with gender distress. Will my right hon. Friend agree to meet me and other concerned colleagues to discuss how we can constructively support those young people who are experiencing gender distress?"

He said:

"I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend. This is one of those issues that the whole House is coming to realise requires extreme sensitivity, tact, love and care. We must recognise that when people want to make a transition in their lives, they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect. We have systems in this country that allow that and have done for a long time, and we should be very proud of that, but I want to say in addition that I think, when it comes to distinguishing between a man and a woman, the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important."

This indicates that the Cass Review is being taken seriously at the highest level. His point may have been incidental or tangential - but his words about the Cass Review are very important.

He chose to mention the significance of biology as part of that question. I note we've heard NOTHING from Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence, LGBT Foundation about his words.

Where's the faux outrage? Maybe they realise the game is up.

So I disagree that this isn't important or significant. It is.

If he recognises there is political capital in supporting womens rights, it is the best chance we have.

If Labour gave a toss about the poor and vulnerable they claim to they wouldn't be so invested in this pathetic ideological purity game and insisting on maintaining such uncompromising positions on things the electorate do not want. They are not behaving like they have any desire to be elected.

It is outrageous, I agree, that the tories have become the lesser of two evils. But unfortunately womens rights are existential for me.

I don’t know what clear message you think voting Conservative will send. Or who you think’s going to listen to it.

The message Tory voters send me is that they’ll tolerate any amount of lying, corruption and wealth redistribution from the poorest to the richest if it suits their own ends. I’m not prepared to be that person, particularly given that they’re so unprincipled they’re likely to change their mind on a sixpence.

Johnson has lied and lied and lied. Why do you think he’s not lying now?

I think this thread should be retitled ‘Boris flicks a few basic reality crumbs down from his sexist table’. That’s all that’s happened.

I refuse to feel grateful enough for that to actually vote for him. Even if I did solely decide my vote on this one issue. Why would I?

If this is our single issue, like it or not we ARE all still politically homeless. I asked upthread what the Boris johnson government has done or promised to do to protect women and girls from gender identity harms. Still waiting for even one example. If you’re saying you’re swayed enough to vote Tory then something they’ve actually done or promised in a manifesto somewhere must have convinced you. Not an allusion of a comment at PMQs about biology being important too and rights being important too. We all fucking know that much. The people who hate women can agree with that statement, just as much as the ones who support women’s rights do.