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Original poster

AIBU? Trans friend....

609 replies

OrchardBlack · 21/03/2022 22:41

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

OP posts:
viques · 22/03/2022 10:31

@Ddot

How can he use the mens loo in a frock. You could ask if he can use the disabled or go with him to the ladies, that's the only solution
Not the OPs problem. Why should she have to act as a bodyguard for someone to prop up their fantasy of being something they are not?
TeaKlaxon · 22/03/2022 10:29

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

"Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act."

LEGALLY, under the Equalities Act, said trans people should have a GRC to be protected.
A bloke who has declared this to be his first night out as a TW will not have one of those. As such, he is not "protected as a trans person" legally.
And legally, toilets CAN be segregated by sex.

That's not true.

The gender reassignment ground under the Equality Act applies to anyone who has taken any steps towards transitioning.

That can include changing names or pronouns, changing appearance etc. GRC is not needed under the Equality Act to have its protection under the gender reassignment ground.

CrossStichQueen · 22/03/2022 10:28

If no toilets are sex segregated why do we have mens and womens toilets in the first place?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 10:28

Those that are segregated are not segregated by the chromosomes one has either, either in practice or in law.

They are segregated by the social contract that decent males don't violate women's boundaries. And always have been. There is no toilet based law on these matters.

TeaKlaxon · 22/03/2022 10:27

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act.

No they are not. There is no positive legal right in the Equality Act for any males to use women's spaces. Single sex exemptions can apply to all males, they are nothing to do with trans anything, allowing any males in makes a space mixed by definition.

Try again. Maybe this time reading the EHRC guidance.

Gender Reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. Harassment against people with protected characteristics is prohibited under the Equality Act. Harassment is defined widely to include behaviour that would violate their dignity, which would include forcing a trans woman to use the mens bathrooms. And the OP's friend's friend clearly meets the legal test for gender reassignment.

Also, the single sex exception cannot apply on a blanket basis, that has been established by the courts.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 10:26

LEGALLY, under the Equalities Act, said trans people should have a GRC to be protected.
A bloke who has declared this to be his first night out as a TW will not have one of those. As such, he is not "protected as a trans person" legally.

This isn't quite true. It's perfectly acceptable for spaces to be female only, but there is no positive distinction made in the equality act for males with GRC. It is a tricky grey area because they have undergone a legal gender change under the GRA, unlike males without. If a service provider wishes, they can let any of these males who declare that they are women into a women's space. That is a grey area too, as it might be grounds for indirect discrimination against women if they can no longer access services due to the presence of males when they require a female only space for privacy and dignity.

TheWeeDonkey · 22/03/2022 10:26

@RantyAunty

This isn't even a trans issue.

It's a CF friend issue.

Agree. It's your friend who is the problem here.
Drinkingallthewine · 22/03/2022 10:23

Regardless of anybody's stance on the transgender issue, the problem is the hijacking of the event by someone you don't really know to impose rules that will inhibit your enjoyment of the event at best (no photos, remembering to not mis-gender) and at worst, cause a scene if someone accosts the new friend aggressively or starts a fight, thus ruining the entire night for you all.

It's not much different from the time my friend brought her 11yo along to a planned women's night out of drinking, and accordingly, we had to modify our drinking, our (bad) language and our conversation for the bratty little 11 yo in the thick of it acting like she was one of us. It's one member of the group hijacking the event to make it about them and to change it to it being about them. Fuck that.

I would probably be diplomatic in this instance and say that you want to take photos, enjoy your night and not miss the event by potentially getting into spats with other event goers but that you'd be happy to arrange a special night at another time where that friend's coming out as trans IS the focus of the evening.

AngelinaFibres · 22/03/2022 10:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Yes, they aren't the "female toilets" I was talking about then.

Exactly. They are specifically designed to be used by either sex. Presumably they have a toilet and basin and sanitary bin in the cubicle. The doors will reach all the way to the ceiling and floor. You go into your own private space . Women's toilets that are meant only for women are not designed like this....because they are only meant for women.
RantyAunty · 22/03/2022 10:23

This isn't even a trans issue.

It's a CF friend issue.

TeaKlaxon · 22/03/2022 10:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Yes, they aren't the "female toilets" I was talking about then.

OK.

So not all toilets are segregated in the first place.

Those that are segregated are not segregated by the chromosomes one has either, either in practice or in law.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 10:21

Spaces for women are for female people, the fact that some males feel entitled to violate women's boundaries, comfort, privacy and dignity knowing fully well there are women who object is another issue entirely.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 22/03/2022 10:21

"Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act."

LEGALLY, under the Equalities Act, said trans people should have a GRC to be protected.
A bloke who has declared this to be his first night out as a TW will not have one of those. As such, he is not "protected as a trans person" legally.
And legally, toilets CAN be segregated by sex.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 10:19

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act.

No they are not. There is no positive legal right in the Equality Act for any males to use women's spaces. Single sex exemptions can apply to all males, they are nothing to do with trans anything, allowing any males in makes a space mixed by definition.

AngelinaFibres · 22/03/2022 10:19

@Quaggars

He has hijacked your night and demanding that you don't take photos is very controlling of him

Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though?
I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?
Loads of people don't want their photo taken on a night out.

Yes but Op and her friend presumably do take photos and post them everywhere. He is now saying he doesn't want photos to be taken. If you go out with people who take selfies as part of their enjoyment then they should be allowed to. If you don't want photos taken don't go out with them in the first place.
CollyFleur · 22/03/2022 10:18

@Beefcurtains79

I love how *@collyfleur* has indignantly written FRIEND in capital letters, when OP clearly states in the opening post that she has never even met him 🤣.
Yeah, he's an old friend of the OP's friend who has known him for "many years".
CrossStichQueen · 22/03/2022 10:18

Ddot

Why can't he use the mens toilet in a frock?
Hes a male its the male toilet why should what he wears change that?

PinaColada123456 · 22/03/2022 10:18

@Quaggars

Also all of this thread and nowhere does it actually say what bogs the friend will be going in. Even the OP says they're just assuming as they don't know!
Oh come now, given how bolshy he is, one would have to be gullible to think he will wear a dress and heels and voluntarily go into the mens rather than the womens! That defeats the entire purpose of his night out. And it's clear he is not at all concerned with making women uncomfortable or is backwards in coming forwards.
TheWeeDonkey · 22/03/2022 10:17

@RantyAunty

Good grief. I hate the third wheel thing.

You think you're going to have a nice evening out with a friend and then they want to invite other people. It's never anyone you've ever met.

No, just NO!

Did her friend just invite themselves and your friend was too wet to say no?

If her friend wants to have a coming out occasion they can book their own evening and not hijack someone else's.

Someone, like your friend, started this nonsense in the first place, needs to tell her that she was expecting a different evening.

I've had this done to me quite a few times in my youth. Think friend wants to take me out for my birthday and takes me to someone else's fucking birthday party who I don't even know! Just to name one incident.

I'd be furious at your friend for doing this to you and would question the friendship.

Yeah, this was my thought to. I don't often get a chance to meet up with my friends these days and when we do it's a chance for us to catch up together. I'd be really disappointed if one of them invited their male partner or friend on our rare night out.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 10:17

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Yes, they aren't the "female toilets" I was talking about then.

Ddot · 22/03/2022 10:17

How can he use the mens loo in a frock. You could ask if he can use the disabled or go with him to the ladies, that's the only solution

CrossStichQueen · 22/03/2022 10:16

Also all of this thread and nowhere does it actually say what bogs the friend will be going in.
Even the OP says they're just assuming as they don't know!

True however this lack of knowing is part of the reason the OP is unhappy with the person attending the evening. Once they are there if they do decide to use the women's facilities the OP will already be in a situation where her boundaries are crossed. I think the OP has posted for advice on how to not be in that situation and stick to the original plan of just her and her friend going.

TeaKlaxon · 22/03/2022 10:16

@aSofaNearYou

*Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though? I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?*

I think it's the phrasing. In the OP it says "no photos of the night etc" and that does imply none of them would be taking any photos, which would be very arrogant of him. If that isn't how he phrased it, it might be different.

I think its extremely unlikely anyone actually is saying no one is allowed take any photos.

Saying please don't take any photos of me, on the other hand, is entirely reasonable.

SenselessUbiquity · 22/03/2022 10:15

What I think is raising so many hackles about this situation on the OP's behalf is that it feels appropriative. It's the use of the expression "coming out" along with the fact that he doesn't even know the OP - all together it feels as if the friend has some fantasy about a "supportive girls night out" that he wants to have fulfilled without putting the work in.

I agree with the PPs who are saying that he is hijacking a night out to a particular event that the OP was looking forward to, and that isn't fair. But it's more than that - even if, to all practical purposes, the OP was able to do just as she would have anyway - see the band or whatever, have a couple of drinks, get to know a new person - the issue is that she is being used, roped in to something against her will - and so is her friendship, the one with her real friend.

Why isn't he doing this with his own friends? Partner?

"Coming out" means he wants to make a social drama out of going out in a dress. He isn't actually going to come out - tell all his friends he's transitioned and this is how it is now. That would be too risky and scary and put too many actual real life things at risk. Equally, it's not enough for him just to put on a dress and go to a gig (maybe he already has) because there won't be the validation of the Girl Group.

So he is using someone's actual real relationships (the OP and her friend) as a theatrical backdrop to his fake "coming out" and that is parasitical and lazy and to do with the sugary enjoyment of the girl power girl friendy BFF stereotype.

OP, if your friend is determined to stick to the covid story, see if you can buy her ticket and go with another friend. Don't miss out.

CharSiu · 22/03/2022 10:15

This situation wouldn’t have arisen because I’m very much two’s company threes a crowd. For me it’s the worst social combination so when asked if a third person who I didn’t know could come I would have said sorry let’s just do as we planned.

That dynamic would have always changed the night without the now further information about his plans.

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