AIBU? Trans friend....

🤭 forgot yourself there didn't you 😂

@TeaKlaxon - in England and Wales, you are incorrect. There is no self-ID provision under the law in ENgland and Wales.
Stonewall would have you believe you are correct, but THEY are wrong too. It's what they would LIKE to be true, but it's not.

I suppose it's my fault too that her mother slipped her alcohol unbeknownst to me as well so "she could properly feel like one of us" - that really pissed me off when I found out the next day as mum laughed off her DDs slight hangover. .

Yeah, that friend was never invited back again.

I'm 4ft 10. I'm tiny. I've only met a handful of women that were the same height, I've never met one shorter. I've seen a female dwarf, who's taller than me, out and about. I've never seen a male dwarf irl. The shortest man I know, is 5ft 2, but built differently than me.

I could never, ever pass as male, as an adult, even if I wanted to. I would love to be intimidating, to have the size to back up my big mouth, but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I wonder if shorter/skinner men, are more likely to feel gender dysphoric, (those that don't go the other way, and go out of their way to assert their masculinity).

Lots of strange women have tried to bully me/pick fights with me over the years, usually when they were drunk. Happy slapping in general was a thing back then, and ladettes culture, but I blame that on internalised misogyny? Those girls that so wanted to emulate/impress/be one of "the lads", (because femininity and weakness are so awful?).

Men have used size and strength, to dominate women, since the dawn of time. They also say prostitution was the first form of currency, which I think says a lot about society too. For most of history, marriage had nothing to do with love, it was to enable patriarchy, and to help establish male primogeniture. Marital rape wasn't a crime in the UK, until the early 90's.

Again, posters on about chromosome tests to use the loos....

Do you have any idea how bad you make transwomen look?

Transwomen are not all completely delusional and out of control. Stop it. Many are completely honest about knowing what sex they are and know that female spaces are not for them.

Why are some "allies" so intent on implying abusive, entitled behaviour is inherent to a trans identity?

Yet another man using women as his support humans. Take note, OP, of the people who try to shame you into complying.

So @PutinIsAWarCriminal
Lets have a little peek at the verbal adjustments needed to justify a male deciding to make a fun social event all about his sun dress and heels at night in March/April in England.

I think YABU in jumping to conclusions.
[imo friend of a friend making the night all about his wants is a fair conclusion]
My teen female daughter dd has a male trans (girl) friend, and all it means is that he she is now addressed by a female girl's name and wears a female girl's school uniform.
[yet again the idea is reinforced that wearing a dress or skirt is "The Way" to signify being a girl/woman]

My dd and her female friends had a sensible conversation with him her about how uncomfortable and unsafe females girls would feel
[so your teen and other female teens are having to teach the male teen about their female right to have boundries and apparently teach the male teen about something which his parents and society generally did not teach him, a male ]

about having a male in the female girls' toilets and changing rooms,
[ notice the ability to correctly sex the teen is needed to justify that point]

especially a male one who is sexually attracted to both males and females bi.
[ is the fact that the teen is also sexually attracted to males to make the point that sexual orientation may not be the problem, but rather that males are not taught to respect female boundaries.]

Male Trans women doesn't or shouldn't have to be about appropriation and wolf in sheep's clothing, and his her wearing a sun dress and heels as a social declaration coming out on your night put is an opportunity for you to be listened to.
[ i beleive that is called "emotional labour" where the OP stops her activity to provide an "educational oppertunity". The OP wants a fun night out with someone she knows not acting as a support for the OPs friend. Your teen will be able to drink soon she will either have the friend (or be the friend) who gets a little too drunk to self-regulate or self-safeguard. Understanding that eucational opportunism and boozy nights out are never a good mix can be a dangerous life lesson to learn.]
What is particularly special about the night out?
[nothing special, that was the special bit]

It isn't a significant birthday or hen do, so I don't understand the comments about high jacking.
[OPs friend has third wheel syndrome]

Would you feel the same if he was coming out as gay, or are you worried about them attracting negative attention?
[why would the OP care about a strangers sexual orientation, the OP believed that the male in question is in a sex relationship. So presumabaly would be including him on her mental list of "people I wont date or have sex with". Unless OP hangs out in odd places or a pickup joint most people won't notice anybody out of their own social groups.]

"Transwomen", when they express an interest in the feminine (whatever the motivation), feel afraid of other mens reactions, yet they still don't get that women feel that fear from a very young age, and that no matter how they "feel", we can't tell that, we only have our senses and intuition/sub conscience to go by. If we see a man (no matter how he's dressed and woman can usually tell, even if they're too polite to point out, that he isnt't passing), it often triggers a certain response. Like a pp said, when you're out alone on a dark night, and hear foot steps behind you, and you look back and see another woman, and feel relief

All of this. And males who identify as women, even if they feel afraid of other men, are doing that with the advantage of having a male's size and strength. They will never know what it is a like to be a woman, with our smaller size and lesser strength and live in a world where almost 50% of the population is bigger and stronger than you and where we have all experienced aggression and intimidation from men, if not assault, BECAUSE they are men and we are women.

It's not much different from the time my friend brought her 11yo along to a planned women's night out of drinking, and accordingly, we had to modify our drinking, our (bad) language and our conversation for the bratty little 11 yo in the thick of it acting like she was one of us. It's one member of the group hijacking the event to make it about them and to change it to it being about them. Fuck that.

Ugh. That's a child you're talking about.
How is this in any way comparable?!
The child will have had no say in whether they went or not
Surely the fault in your scenario is the mum who won't leave her kid at home when she wants a night out/be out with her mates??
From the 11 year old 's point of view I'm sure they'd rather be doing anything than stuck with her old fart mum and all her mates on a get together /wanting a pissed up sesh!
(I say this as someone who is firmly in the leave your kids at home on a night out rather than expect me to feel I have to babysit your kid/ watch my drinking or my language too.
OP and her friends are all presumably grown ups so not comparable.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

That's because - until recently - there has never been a need for it. Societal etiquette and societal mores and pressure meant the shame of a man entering a woman's area would have him labelled a pervert and chased down. Now, because of people brainwashed by Meninist ideology to overthrow the rights of Muslim women and women in general, men in women's toilets wouldn't earn the rebuke and censure it would have before.

/////

Pina can I add to this excellent point .... speaking with DH in the past on this issue he said that whilst it may be inconvenient he would never, ever attempt to be in a space with women which through social courtesy is reserved for them, especially if his presence would ever cause her discomfort or distress. He says it takes a pretty selfish individual to put their feelz above this.

The previous poster almost seems to support this happening covertly, like a "Ha! It's happening and you don't know it and you'd be so uncomfortable if you did!" sort of gotcha.

*Excuse women/woman typos, my auto correct has ideas of its own

I get the feeling that some posters here have been incredibly lucky with their interactions with men, which has made them a little naive, compared with those of us who've had some pretty bad experiences?

Every single bad experience, that was sexual in nature, or involved abuse, a male was the perpetrator (I refuse to refer to the trans ex, that sexually co-ereced/abused me, so he could ejaculate with his penis, as a woman). Though I do know women can be abusive towards other woman too, I think statistically it's much less likely/common. I think woman are actually more likely to abuse men, than other women (because there are way more hetro relationships, than lesbian ones?).

I'm bi, in the closet with family, and have had some bad experiences with women, but never abuse, more their personal issues impacting me, mental illness, eating disorders, family drama, addiction, self harm etc.

I've found the dynamic is different in lesbian relationships, for me that's 80% of the appeal.

A lot of the men I know/have dated, are clearly misogynistic, and think women should know their place. I've experienced a fair amount if sexual harassment, especially in work, all of it from men.

My own father (who wonders why he's perpetually single these days), still says shit like "if she was my wife, I'd hit her a good slap". DM always said the minute they got married, he was like a different man.

Men are most at risk, from other men. Something like 80% of murders, are committed by men. "Transwomen", when they express an interest in the feminine (whatever the motivation), feel afraid of other mens reactions, yet they still don't get that women feel that fear from a very young age, and that no matter how they "feel", we can't tell that, we only have our senses and intuition/sub conscience to go by. If we see a man (no matter how he's dressed and woman can usually tell, even if they're too polite to point out, that he isnt't passing), it often triggers a certain response. Like a pp said, when you're out alone on a dark night, and hear foot steps behind you, and you look back and see another woman, and feel relief.

I do think it's a genuine shame that many transwomen clearly feel they can't talk openly about what's going on in their heads. Things like fetishes, kinks and sexual disorders are still so taboo, I wish more could be done to normalise these issues (so seeking appropriate help could be normalised). Those with genuine gender dysphoria, are harmed the most, because so many have lied, to indulge in transvestic (and associated) disorders (just as addicts will lie to get a fix, gamblers to gamble, anorexics to avoid eating, someone with bi-polar, to keep experiencing the euphoria of a manic phase, etc).

I would avoid this night out like the plague. But really, mainly, to swerve being involved in such an attention seeking drama. If it was one of my closest friends then, maybe, but not for a friend of a friend.

@TeaKlaxon
Everything you say is wrong.

Just on this last point - toilets are not segregated by sex.
First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women Some toilets are not, your movement is pushing for this and this is removing sex segregated toilets. Toilets are largely segregated by sex and you know it. It is just dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been Humans have evolved to be able to tell on sight whether someone is male or female, for the rather obvious reasons of sexual reproduction. All species can do this. It's a real example of the intellectual deceits that people can subject themselves to, to pretend that we are somehow unable to tell what someone's sex is. But you need to create this extreme position, as an admission that we can tell one sex from another means your whole house of cards starts to collapse.
Sex segregated toilets have worked on a strong social understanding and enforcement, just like many social rules do.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations Another dishonest argument,. Until very recently, most trans people were those with gender dysphoria who were genuinely trying to live as the opposite sex and whose dysphoria drove them to be genuinely perceived as the opposite sex. Now, literally anyone, with no effort, can come under the trans umbrella, regardless of how 'cis' presenting they are (expressions does not need to match identity remember!) and entirely male presenting cross dressers can now claim womanhood. This change is what has caused the safe guarding concerns, and concerns of fairness.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example No. Gender identity is not protected. Gender reassignment is.

I'm pleased your friends friend feels ready to come out and live their authentic self. It would take guts.

Difficult to hide that male entitlement and "It's all about meeee" thing in a sundress though.

They will realise quite quickly it's a few weeks to go until sundress season though, freeze they will

I would be seriously pissed off at this. However, I think my disappointment at missing a night out would be vastly outweighed by the idea of being put in this position. I just wouldn't go.

And to the pp who said she used the men's toilets all the time, that is a hugely different situation to a man using the women's toilets. Men are in the men's toilets to take a piss. It's unlikely someone there will use a woman coming in the door in an opportunistic way. But a man entering the women's toilets, dressed as a woman, MAY have bad intentions and, if this is the case, he will hope/assume the fact he is dressed as a woman will create a false sense of security in the women there. If a man walked into women's toilets dressed as a man, women would immediately be on their guard. Men, whatever they're wearing, should just stay the hell out of women's toilets and let us have SOMEWHERE on this planet we can feel safe.

@TeaKlaxon Firstly, toilets have notionally always been segregated by sex - UNTIL RECENTLY. If a man was entering a woman's toilet, until recently, police or security guards could remove him. So you are incorrect.

First, many toilets are not segregated at all.

Yes we know that, and it doesn't make it right, nor does it justify it. Also, many of us women are attempting to (and in a few circumstances have succeeded) revert unisex toilets.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

That's because - until recently - there has never been a need for it. Societal etiquette and societal mores and pressure meant the shame of a man entering a woman's area would have him labelled a pervert and chased down. Now, because of people brainwashed by Meninist ideology to overthrow the rights of Muslim women and women in general, men in women's toilets wouldn't earn the rebuke and censure it would have before.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations.

That myth is often repeated but without any true foundation. Regardless, that is a strawman. What you are saying is that 'because some do it, then just let all men do it'. Imagine applying your level of 'logic' to, say, doing crystal meth or heroin (oh, we'll never get rid of it so legalise it all), or murders or rapes.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example.

There can be blanket bans on bathrooms in some places. And women, Muslim women, and rape/DV survivors are working with the UHCR (forgotten the acronym so that's probably the wrong one) to overturn the rest and enshrine our sex-based rights that our foresisters fought for, in law.

Trans women who pass will tend to use the women's bathrooms.

Most trans women 'think' they pass. In reality, 0000.00000001% do.

Trans women who don't pass tend not to.

On the contrary, 99.999999999% of trans women who don't pass do tend to.

Despite all of the conjecture about her friend's friend relishing the ladies bathroom, she is probably dreading it and may well be seeking out gender neutral spaces to avoid awkwardness. Of course that doesn't suit the bigoted 'narcissist/fetishist' trope that folk here want to trot out but it is the reality.

Who do you think you're really fooling here? The man is so in-your-face with exuberant bolshy over-confident male privilege, I'd lay a bet of my entire home and 5 years salary that the FIRST place he wants to go is stop off at the ladies before they enter the show. It's clear he is not backwards in coming forwards, wake up. Of course the reality doesn't suit your agenda or your deep denial and eager to please men and men's feelings while throwing women, including Muslim Hijabi wearing women under the bus.

But I guess it's easier to bully women.

If they are sex segregated, when's the last time you had to prove your chromosomal make up to use the women's bathrooms

Nobody ever has but that hasn't stopped the very obvious fact that males use make spaces and females use females. When did humans become unable to correctly sex one another with the need for a chromosome test?

I'm not going to derail the thread by indulging Wot I Reckon Stonewall law experts. We will see how it all pans out in time, I guess.

Women really have had all these conversations before here, TeaKlaxon and many of us understand the law at least equally as much as you.

Also, the single sex exception cannot apply on a blanket basis, that has been established by the courts.

Yes it can, try reading the notes to the Equality Act. One of the examples mentioned is that a "genuine occupational requirement" under the single sex exemptions could be a rape counselling service which only employs women, and not biological males, even with a GRC.

Which both shows that blanket exemptions can apply in some circumstances and also that excluding GRC holders is a higher bar than excluding non GRC males.