AIBU? Trans friend....

there are just as many compassionate people out in thereal world who would be sensitive to the needs and fears of thisperson.

Just this person? No compassion for other needs and fears?

Men's toilets are quite open (urinals etc.) so the etiquette is that you go in there, do what you need to do, and leave again. There is no conversation, you ignore each other.

The only time someone would ever be at risk of a hiding in the men's toilets is if they were caught peeking.

Yes I have seen a stag party were men are dressed as women but one lone Male dressed in a frock entering a male loo may be dangerous

So you believe males in male toilets are dangerous but a male in the womens toilets is not dangerous?

We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman. If you can’t see the difference then it is a little bit sad.

Go on then, @BiscuitLover3678 enlighten us as to the difference.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like.

It's also what most men are like. Unfortunately the other 10% have the loudest voices.

Yes I have seen a stag party were men are dressed as women but one lone Male dressed in a frock entering a male loo may be dangerous

Depressing isn’t it. But for every ignorant pearl clutcher mouthing off on mumsnet there are just as many compassionate people out in the real world who would be sensitive to the needs and fears of this person. Guess it’s good that this person finds out who their real friends are sooner rather than later

Shame those compassionate for the trans appear to have none left for the people who want single sex toilets or indeed those who require single sex toilets to be able to partake in life.

The OP in this case was never a friend to the trans person, never even met the trans person, so trying to imply OP is a shit friend isnt helpful.
And OPs original friend maybe a shit friend but as shes not on here to defend herself it's pointless speculating.

There are no bathroom police.
Males sex themselves, they then decide to abide by a social contract and stay out of female toilets or reject the social contract and enter female toilet.

In which case, the answer just has to be no.

"The fast solution in the meantime is third spaces."

But that's rarely acceptable, because it's not "validating" enough.
Of course it makes most sense, and if it really was all about just "wanting to pee" then it would be acceptable - but it isn't.
Like open sport categories aren't.
Total capitulation is required.

Of course someone dressed as a woman will be using the women's toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets?!

Women get told constantly that it never happens, NAMALT, and if anything happens to make them uncomfortable in their toilets they just call the police and report it after it's happened. Besides which, predatory men will predate whatever you do so no point worrying.

Vile advice isn't it?

But it's not much nicer to imply that it's the job of women to act as human shields and take vulnerable men into their spaces and resources to protect them. However nice that might make you feel in yourself, we're talking about a lot of male people of various identities, because gay men are often treated badly in male spaces, young men, men with disabilities, there's a lot of vulnerable males. Do people with female biology need to provide mummy nursing care to all of them?

And still what are we going to do with the females we exclude from any space or resource so that some males can choose from all the spaces as to which one they feel works best for them, and some more privileged females can get to feel lovely and caring?

The long term solution is to address, properly, the behaviour or males, and to look at making all male spaces properly accessible and inclusive if males are feeling that they currently do not do this job.

The fast solution in the meantime is third spaces.

TeaKlaxon

Ereshkigalangcleg
They're saying that you don't automatically think that lesbians are attracted to you/will sexually assault you because they fancy other women.
Even if an individual lesbian did, Quaggars
, which they very likely don't, as 98% of sex crime is committed by male people, lesbians are female, and have as much rights to use women's toilets as any other female person. Men do not, even if they are the most wonderful woman supportive men on the planet. Because toilets are segregated by sex.

Just on this last point - toilets are not segregated by sex.

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example.

So no, toilets are not segregated by sex.

What's more, OP's chances of sharing a toilet with a trans woman will not be significantly altered by her friend's friend joining their night out. Trans women who pass will tend to use the women's bathrooms. Trans women who don't pass tend not to. Despite all of the conjecture about her friend's friend relishing the ladies bathroom, she is probably dreading it and may well be seeking out gender neutral spaces to avoid awkwardness. Of course that doesn't suit the bigoted 'narcissist/fetishist' trope that folk here want to trot out but it is the reality.

A unicorn's unicorn trope👍

The amoral transgender male argument plus every female space already has a male occupant who passes.

The male with the male penis, is somehow unaware that the male penis is a male penis so has no moral issue with entering a single sex female space.

Or

The heterosexual/bisexual male of legal age with a female partner who has yet to discover acts of sexual reproduction. Not only do we never know, the male never knows either.

@Annette32123
That’s where we go wrong. Trying not to be rude.
Men are rude all the time. This chap is being rude. Nothing wrong with being rude back.

You know what, Annette, you're absolutely right. I constantly try to look after other people's feelings at the cost of my own. My mum brought me up to be polite and considerate of other people's feelings but she definitely didn't teach me to be a doormat. I've morphed into that all on my own! I'm so assertive over so many things but I hate to be perceived as rude or unaccommodating. I need to work on this. Thank you for that.

Always has to be framed into who gets the prize and who gets to shut up, put up and have nothing at all.

Interesting that.

How about 'lets find answers that work equally for everyone?'

Third spaces. Nothing else works: how can a single-sex space exist if members of the opposite sex are given access to it? It can't.

And yes to cancelling or getting out of the evening. This is horribly narcissistic of the 'extra guest'. And you know what to do with narcs? Run away.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like

What's sad is that genuine and decent people like your friend have had to watch the shit storm that has been created by this recent ideology that says any man is literally a woman if he says he is and must be treated as one in all and every circumstance, and that any woman who disagrees is motivated by nothing but hate and bigotry.

Good on your friend for realising the implications for woman of that and treating women with respect instead.

Which is better a social lie or she comes out with the truthful answer?

The night as designed by the male creates a social obligation on the OP and OP's friend to lie.

The OP may have mutual friends was she introduced to Jack or Jill.

Going back to the OP (because not about to wade through 10 pages), of course you'd be annoyed. I'd be very annoyed with him and also very annoyed with my friend for allowing it to happen. She could have told him that was too much of a change to the dynamics of the planned outing, wasn't fair to her other friend (you), wished him well, and left it at that.

No, I wouldn't be "happy for him" trying to make the event all about him, especially if I didn't really even know him. He's only a friend of a friend, and he's making awkward demands about no photos, etc.? Taking over someone else's outing is quite rude, no matter what the circumstances.

In your shoes I'd ask my friend to tell him that I'm no longer available as the emotional support animal for men going through some major event in their lives. Whether it's some guy crying over a divorce or wearing a frock for the first time, it's all the same to me and my welcome is revoked.

it is a little bit sad.

I find the absolute lack of care and kindness and consideration to females more than a little bit sad, personally.

To those who say Trans women aren't men...

Is this man a trans women yet? At what point does he become a trans women and stop being a man?
The night he goes out with a dress on? Or before that?

Or just when he says so? Does just saying it make it happen and then he stops being a man?

This doesn't even make it to the Trans women/ and toilet issue for me.

The suggestion that a man I don't know wants to make my night out with a friend now all about them going public in women's clothes for the first time would just make me state. No.

It screams of him getting some kicks from this public airing of a fetish, with you as a side show to facilitate and cheer the whole thing.

The whole night out would now be about them and this amazing 'experience' they're having.

I wouldn't be a part of it.

People were only called homophobic as they tried to imply that lesbians were on the same level as men in terms of who should access women's spaces. Women's spaces aren't "straight women spaces". They are however women's spaces, ie not for men.