Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]I've not seen any who competed with her complaining so far.

Unlike you, I don't believe they are lying because I disagree with them

Look again! There are even a couple of threads about it.

Apologies for the DM links but others are behind a paywall.

THIS is where I get my assertion that many are too frightened of losing their places, sponsorships form. The women themselves.

Oh, an dthe ofrst one has a handy comparison of Will/Lia's times in various events and the quote "Thomas said her pre-transition times are not an accurate gage for her 'current ability’ but admitted that she did not train as often or as hard in her year off as she did when competing on the men's team."

But I suppose that now Will is Lia you can decide for yourself whether or not she is one of the women you will believe!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310305/Female-competitor-speaks-saying-IMPOSSIBLE-beat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10633529/Virginia-Tech-swimmer-bumped-finals-Lia-Thomas-writes-letter-blasting-NCAA.html[/quote]
Thank you for the links, but I really don't trust Daily Mail to accurately quote anonymous sources, or even trust that they are real.

The network from which they have pulled the quotes is OutKick - which is owned by Fox News, and run by Rush Limbaugh's replacement, which says Wikipedia is biased and called the US Soccer team "woke". As I've said before, it's an alliance of the socially conservative right and useful gender critical people.

Please consider using mainstream sources.

The times show what I said - that when competing as a man, Lia was in the top 10%, and competiting as a woman (after two years of HRT) she is in the top 10% of women.

The comparison in the article - if Lia had the same times as when she was competing in the men's division she would be world champion is nonsensical, beccause the HRT is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Here you are - Reka Gyorgy speaks out about being denied a place in the final by LT taking her place. This is an article from today:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8f658262-a934-11ec-b5dd-c16e85f55725?shareToken=21fc83ad91ef3c85a5fd44346057eb4b

And because unlike some, women on here can always provide the receipts:
www.sportbible.com/other/lia-thomas-virginia-student-speak-out-against-trans-swimmer-20220318

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/02/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-teammates/

@SamphiretheStickerist

You suggested that the athletes who supported her were being supportive to keep their sponsorship - in other words, lying.

You were suggested that I didn't believe people who opposed Lia Thomas' participation. I believe them, I just don't agree with them.

Which athletes who competed with Lia disagreed with her being in the competition? I wasn't able to find any.

I believe the athletes, not you. I think it's deeply unpleasant that you would ascribe ulterior motives to them. from DadJoke!

Or maybe me, when I said it is a lie to say that human beings can change sex?!?!?

I've not seen any who competed with her complaining so far.

Unlike you, I don't believe they are lying because I disagree with them

Look again! There are even a couple of threads about it.

Apologies for the DM links but others are behind a paywall.

THIS is where I get my assertion that many are too frightened of losing their places, sponsorships form. The women themselves.

Oh, an dthe ofrst one has a handy comparison of Will/Lia's times in various events and the quote "Thomas said her pre-transition times are not an accurate gage for her 'current ability’ but admitted that she did not train as often or as hard in her year off as she did when competing on the men's team."

But I suppose that now Will is Lia you can decide for yourself whether or not she is one of the women you will believe!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10310305/Female-competitor-speaks-saying-IMPOSSIBLE-beat-UPenn-transgender-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10633529/Virginia-Tech-swimmer-bumped-finals-Lia-Thomas-writes-letter-blasting-NCAA.html

Unlike you, I don't believe they are lying because I disagree with them.

Well I'm baffled as to where you got that from, I have not accused anyone of lying about anything, it wasn't a subject that came up in my post.

Male people not being in female categories IS TREATING THEM EQUALLY.

Unlike you, I don't believe they are lying because I disagree with them.

I believe the athletes, not you. I think it's deeply unpleasant that you would ascribe ulterior motives to them.

And yet, you have just told us what you believe has happened. Has she come out with another supportive statement? If so, please post it up. I have not seen one yet, and I look forward to having that clarity.

Otherwise, your actions are just as bad. At that point, that athlete had not been beaten by Thomas. How do you know that she has now not changed her mind?

Yeah, well, on past record here, you would. You have no skin in the game. Why wouldn't you?

And I firmly believe that many women, gay or otherwise, will regret their uber liberal stance on this. It will only take one instance of them having a negative experience where a transwoman behaves just like many other males and ignores their voices, their wishes and scares or hurts them.

Ask yourself an honest question @DadJoke. Why are you ignoring the voices of so many women to support an ideology that has hurt so many already?

Selective about which athletes you believe I see..... oddly all the ones who support male people's absolute freedom to destroy female sports.

I suggest you read what gay athelete Erica Sullivan has to say. This is wholehearted support from someone who considers her struggles to be similar.

"Why I'm Proud to Support Trans Athletes like Lia Thomas"

www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem

I have a really hard time believing someone typed this out loud.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem

I was thinking about that again and it made me smile. Almost every sports science student conducts a study into the differences between male and female biomechanics / physiology. Why? Because it is easy to do, rarely needs much of an Ethics pass and every University has the facilities to undertake such an investigation.

Sociologically there are an equal number of investigations across many areas of life. Correlations, causations, all sorts of measures are taken, published, discussed, debated.

But hey! What do people whose livelihoods are discussing such stuff know about anything? Pshaw!

If everyone insists that naming sex is transphobic, then yes it is impossible to make an argument that is not transphobic. Male athletes should not be in a female category. One day perhaps we will reach a point in all areas of life where sex is completely unimportant to talk about, but that is not the sane thing as pretending it doesn't exist - in fact it's the opposite. There would be zero drama and if all trans athletes were like Izaak Henig and just swam in their sex category. It does nothing to change or discount their life choices or their human rights. And if anyone were to harass Izaak or Lia for doing that, I would be so happy to support them 100%.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem

Just because you haven't seen papers on the different biomechanics and physiology of males and females doesn't mean they don't exist.

Given your apparent interest, your lack of having seen them seems to be wilful blindness.

Lia is now competing in different events and times are all over the place. This may be due to Lia being a .mediocre swimmer or perhaps slow times are when it doesn't count or would be politically difficult. It doesn't matter though as Lia is male and should not be competing against female swimmers. It doesn't matter if Lia is a good or a bad swimmer or even if they are the incredible shrinking swimmer being described on Twitter, Lia is male and has no place in female swimming.

Kate Ledecky's all-time record in this event is almost 10 seconds faster - 4:24.06.

And she swam at her very, very best to achieve that time. Thomas has not yet swum this race flat out... as anyone can see, even with no swimming experience.

"That was so easy, I was cruising." speaks for itself!

The women who came second and third were fully supportive of Lia.

Yeah! Cos it's so very wasy to speak out when your career, sponsorhsip, will end when you do.

Women are angry about this. If you think it is transphobic to object to a man competing in women's sport then that is your issue, you are the one with an error of perception, a warped take on reality.

Get over yourself, indeed!

It's possible to have a reasonable discussion that she shouldn't have been grandfathered in to this event, or even look at trans women in women's sport without being transphobic, but I've not seen that happen.

It's completely normal for women to be highly fucked off that a male is competing in their sport and taking the place of a woman.

Get over yourself.

The photo wasn't a protest.

The women who came second and third were fully supportive of Lia.

When she competed in the men's category, she was near the top. Her ratings went down to the mid 400s only after she started hormone treatment - exactly what you'd expect. In 2018, she had top 8 finishes in 500, 1000, and 1650-yard freestyle. She was 10 seconds behind the male record, now she is 10 seconds behind the female record.

Lia did not win all her races and setting a pool record is good, but not great. She's not setting national or State records, even. She got thrashed by a bunch of cis women in other races.

As Martina Navratilova said, even if you think the rules are wrong, Lia did not break them or "cheat."

Kate Ledecky's all-time record in this event is almost 10 seconds faster - 4:24.06.

It's possible to have a reasonable discussion that she shouldn't have been grandfathered in to this event, or even look at trans women in women's sport without being transphobic, but I've not seen that happen.

Surely if Lia has shrunk so much on hormones it would be extremely dangerous to offer these to children or they'll all shrink to primary school height.

"When you haven’t spent even three minutes on Google Scholar doing a basic literature review on a subject, you shouldn’t hold such strong opinions."

Well indeed, but their feelings don't care about your facts. Facts are transphobic

Almost feel like I'm derailing the thread, but this is actually back on topic.

Good piece by Colin Wright (known associate of Emma Hilton) about the protests at the swimming event.

Gender Ideology Is on Life Support. My Day Watching Lia Thomas Swim

I found the counter-protesters to be well-intentioned. Most were silent, some were polite, and a few were snarky and verbally aggressive. But what they all shared was passion as a substitute for knowledge. After very little questioning it became clear that they knew next to nothing about the topic they were so passionately out defending.

One of the counter-protesters seemed interested in data, confidently asserting that there wasn’t any good data demonstrating that transgender women who have lowered their testosterone levels have an unfair advantage over female athletes. Being close to the data on this issue, I responded that their claim simply wasn’t true, and that there were currently two literature reviews published in the most prestigious sports medicine journals in the world—Sports Medicine, and the British Journal of Sports Medicine. These studies corroborated each other’s results demonstrating that hormonal suppression does very little to close the large performance gap between male and female athletes. And, though it doesn’t really matter, the first author of the latter review is a trans woman.

The activists had somehow never heard of these review papers. “Were they peer reviewed?” they asked. Yes. “By who?” The journal editors and expert reviewers they selected. “How many people were in the studies?” These are review papers, so they include all individuals from every study on the topic. “Can you show me the studies?” Yes, here. That is how far I got with one of the activists before a security guard instructed me to go back to “my” side of the road to join the SWS protesters.

It was shocking to me that people with such a tenuous-to-nonexistent grasp of the relevant facts and data could not only be out protesting with such passion, but doing so while purporting to care about facts and data. When you haven’t spent even three minutes on Google Scholar doing a basic literature review on a subject, you shouldn’t hold such strong opinions.