Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

Twonk!

I didn't say it's likely. I said it's never been accurately studied and determined.

@greasyshoes thousands of undergrad students repeat long known physiological and biological tests every fucking year... becaue the results are known, can be demonstrated by even the most lacklustre of students, checked against an enormous library of previous data and discussed in detail by every member of every sport science department.

That YOU have no idea doesn't make it a fact!

And then you folow that up with this:

Those are bad examples because gymnastics and dance are different for men and women.

Which completely contradicts everything else you have deigned to post. you DO know that there are physiological differences between the sexes that have an effect of performance!

And I bet you thought you were still being clever!

Just caught the tail end on GMB....two trans males talking about women's sports. Obviously couldn't find an actual woman to talk about our own rights.

InBBC Sport news today: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/60842863

You also forgot all the information given in this thread about the different in balance between males and females thanks to the difference in pelvic arrangement, hence female gymnasts complete on the balance beam while male gymnasts don't.

Oh and the information about difference in upper body strength, hence men compete on the rings and women don't.

Greasey just keeps on giving.

It is of course a very well known fact that males can perform floor routines and even uneven bar routines that females cannot. Because of twitch muscles and other muscles for jumping, and a whole raft of differences..

Oh and grip strength and hand size for staying attached to uneven bars while your body weight is swung around and around.

But crack on greasy. You are doing really good work. Every time.

Being discussed later on GMB

Equality vs equity

[quote Enough4me]@Runningupthecurtains, I like that explanation. Equality of opportunity would mean women's categories must be for women for anatomical reasons, not to be squashed to appease male feelings.[/quote]
Equality of opportunity means putting in lift and ramps for disabled access, equality of treatment would be shrugging shoulders and pointing at the stairs.

Ah, yes. I forgot that men are unable to do floor routines if there is music playing in the background.
You also forgot all the information given in this thread about the different in balance between males and females thanks to the difference in pelvic arrangement, hence female gymnasts complete on the balance beam while male gymnasts don't.
Oh and the information about difference in upper body strength, hence men compete on the rings and women don't.

Surely if societal attitudes account for 99% of differences the gap would be much closer in events that women have been able to participate in for over a century e.g. the 100m than in events that were only recently added to the female event rota e.g. the pole vault.

No, that doesn't logically follow

Part of your logic seems to be that more men than women take part in sport so they will post better times/distances because it is more likely that the very best possible man will have been discovered but you don't think it is logical to assume that an event that has been done by say 1 in 50 sporty women for a century would have a greater chance of having be pursued by the very best possible woman than an event that has only been tried by a handful of women for a decade. The performance gap between men and women is remarkably similar across every running event from 60m to the marathon and this gap is established and fixed within a very short space of an event being added to the female schedule. You argued that men are quicker because more men run so surely it is a logical extension of that argument to say women's times should be closer to men's in events that lots of women have tried and further away in events that very few women have tried.

@Runningupthecurtains, I like that explanation. Equality of opportunity would mean women's categories must be for women for anatomical reasons, not to be squashed to appease male feelings.

No-one is forcing the left to stop pretending they give a shit about women.

Equality (as the the Equalities act) is equality of opportunity, not equality of treatment. So if we eradicate sex/age/para categories in sport everyone would have the same treatment but they would not have the same opportunity.

Is equality the freedom for women to compete with men, or the freedom to only need to compete with anatomically similar people, i.e. other women?

I'd argue it must be the latter as women will get nowhere competing against men. Sports will become the men's group and the mixed group (second-rate men).

Apparently Lia Thomas should be celebrated like Jackie Robinson and having gender integrated sports will help eradicate difference.

Please only read this if you do not have elevated blood pressure

www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/we-should-be-celebrating-lia-thomas-we-did-jackie-robinson-ncna1292521?fbclid=IwAR0J7WWxUgYC6rw5BqDmJ_Rx3ylPdvGQ8NQMiQtLPn1fNFbckveDWNlyQ34

"Women's sports are situated at a paradoxical intersection wherein sex segregation is upheld through claims of biological difference, yet equality is prefaced on being treated the same and given the same opportunities as men. If we are to change this, we need to ask some important questions. How does one advocate for equitable treatment while also adhering to the notion of biological difference? If separate is not equal in the case of schools, bathrooms, restaurants or other social institutions, can separate ever truly be equal in the case of sports? Would gender-based discrimination in sports be eradicated if sports were gender-integrated?"

Go Ron de Santis, and any right wingers, or left wingers, prepared to state the truth and point of the fraud, the cheating, the lies and the cowardice of anyone who goes along with it,

Oh fuck Ron de Santis. Really, fuck the rightwingers trying to pretend they give a shit about women in this and creating a massive circus in order to wank off their base and meaning that Emma Weyant comes under yet more pressure to dissociate herself from the entire issue.

flyingbuttress43

That is not something I expected to see. Thanks for sharing that!

flyingbuttress43

Wow that's huge ! 'Fraud'.

if you think it is likely that the enormous list of physical difference between men and women only cause a small fraction of the difference in sporting performance between men and women

I didn't say it's likely. I said it's never been accurately studied and determined.

I really, really hate the do this because the DSD community have repeatedly ask to be left out of this debate but here goes, if socialization is the main contributing factor then how come three athletes with male DSDs that may have lead to them being identified as females and raised as such have made into the podium in the same Olympic final but zero athletes with female DSD they may have been incorrectly raised as boys have made it anywhere near the Olympics? Not a single hard working, dedicated, determine female bodied athlete has every made it close to male world record because of the crippling nature of female socialization but three of a microscopically small number of make bodied people raised as female all make it to the very top of female sport.at the same time? They managed to shake of the female socialization pretty quickly but not a single natal female in the history of sport has managed to do so? Sorry I'm not buying it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-l_XDC8g34

Florida governor DeSantis has just announced they are to make a proclamation naming Emma Weyant (who came second behind Lia Thomas) as the top 500m freestyle swimmer and criticising the NCAA as trying to destroy female athletics.

Why are they different? Hmmmm could it be perhaps maybe because male and bodies are different?

Ah, yes. I forgot that men are unable to do floor routines if there is music playing in the background.

Great meme:

Why are they different? Hmmmm could it be perhaps maybe because male and bodies are different?

if you think it is likely that the enormous list of physical difference between men and women only cause a small fraction of the difference in sporting performance between men and women

I didn't say it's likely. I said it's never been accurately studied and determined.

why do you think the difference is more or less consistent across the entire range of events? Surely if societal attitudes account for 99% of differences the gap would be much closer in events that women have been able to participate in for over a century e.g. the 100m than in events that were only recently added to the female event rota e.g. the pole vault.

No, that doesn't logically follow.

What about things such as gymnastics and dance that are seen traditionally feminine pursuits many more girls train in ballet than boys so why aren't girls lifting other girls? How come "unmanly" dancer boys that have turned their backs on "macho" sport in favour of "girly" pursuits have manage to muster the strength to lift females partners?

Those are bad examples because gymnastics and dance are different for men and women.