Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

Thank you for links.

@zanahoria just started a thread about O'Sullivan's piece here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4512723-Sonia-OSullivan-Another-Olympian-Speaks-Up

Irish former track & field champion runner Sonia O'Sullivan has written an opinion piece for the Irish Times today (24/03/2022), prompted by Lia Thomas' NCAA victory.

The headline, "Transgender athletes cannot be allowed to compete in women’s sport," is unfortunate, but that will have been the choice of an editor. Likewise, the article repeatedly says "transgender female athletes" when it means "transgender male athletes." Again, could be an editorial issue.

www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/sonia-o-sullivan-transgender-athletes-cannot-be-allowed-to-compete-in-women-s-sport-1.4834586

Comments were open when it was published online this morning and the ones I saw were supportive of O'Sullivan's views. They were removed after about an hour.

Some reaction on Twitter: twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1506907427446222850

Also, the interview with sports scientist Ross Tucker that she refers to was on Newstalk's Off The Ball programme on Tuesday, it is here:

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]@loopycurtains he will come back and say "But how much of that is down to sociological factors? Has anyone measured that?"

He will consider that a Gotcha! - again.

And I will repeat, not with any large cohorts as it is not physically possible to do in a way that would get past Ethics (think about how you would remove sociological input for one cohort!).

I will also repeat the hint about twin studies. But @greasyshoes won't acknowledge that, again!

It is tedious, he has a very small circle of query, and yet remains persistent![/quote]
I'm really not sure what point he's trying to prove. If the difference in performance turned out not to conform to Occam's razor and be due (or largely due) to the blatantly obvious (and well verified by science and statistics) fact that humans are dimorphic , and instead partially to some combination of sociological factors....that still wouldn't make allowing someone born and raised as a boy to compete in womens events fair. That would then be subject to the same reasoning as why it's so wrong for transwomen to be considered for 'women in science' or 'women engineer of the year' type of awards.

@DameHelena I have certainly seen a quote from Thomas to that effect mentioned but I'm at work at the moment so can't dig about to find it. It may be true, it may be a misconstrued but of sarcasm or it may be a myth/lie/fabrication. If my poor febble lady brain remembers later I'll have a dig about and see if I can trace the quote. In the meantime someone else might be able find it for you.

Sorry, I'm not getting what However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone. means.

Apologies.

I mean, that if Thomas or any transitioned male is claiming that they should have access to female sports based on their 'life saving' hormone treatment lowering their performance, then that argument needs to include other males as well.

Because other athletes have had to decide between continuing the sport they love at the level they worked hard to achieve and taking a life saving medication that will lower their performance. Why is it that 'transitioned males' get to use that as an excuse to compete against females? No other male is allowed to. No adult is allowed to join the under 16's because of their decision to take medication.

And if it is driven by 'hormone levels' then any males with low testosterone due to health issues should also be allowed to join the female teams if their testosterone is low enough.

Again, if one group of males can use these arguments, why not the others. All because of magic words 'I am a woman'?

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]@DameHelena I am currently pondering looking for footage of Will to compare to Lia. I want to see if the swimming action, not it's effectiveness, its action are the same. The foot kicks, arm shapes etc. because they won't change, they are physically set by the body.

I suspect, from what I have seen of footage of Lia, that I will see far less foot action - that has already been noted by many but I would like to see the Will comparator.

And some quite robust evidence shows that hormones don't do much in a short space of time and are not universally effective at reducing perfomance anyway!

This one is an easy read, doesn't have any nasty figures and stats to argue over. It has pros and cons mentioned in the same blunt and factual manner and actually discusses transmen too!

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764[/quote]
Thanks Samphire.

There are too many variables with Thomas to really draw any conclusions - a change of distance/event, a strong suspicion that 100% is not given in every race, an admission that they no longer train as often/hard, history littered with bright young things who were going to be the next big thing that drop out, get over taken by late flourishing peers, get injured, get diverted by other pursuits.... As our friend with unclean footwear might say no-one has measured it. How can we know if a drop in performance is due to reduced testosterone or sudden on set of lady brain. For what it's worth I don't think anyone who believes that there is a difference between male and female performance has claimed reducing testosterone would have no impact, just that it is far from the whole picture.

So does this mean Thomas had a dip in performance while actually transitioning, but now is getting back to previous – male – form?

Could be. Could be due to hormone treatment, could be due to mental health and distraction.

However, the entire house of cards falls when you consider no other male can just start competing in a female competition because they have to take medication that reduces their performance, or because they have low testosterone.

It should never have signified that males ever could participate in female sport, and it is certainly not a consulation prize.

@DameHelena I am currently pondering looking for footage of Will to compare to Lia. I want to see if the swimming action, not it's effectiveness, its action are the same. The foot kicks, arm shapes etc. because they won't change, they are physically set by the body.

I suspect, from what I have seen of footage of Lia, that I will see far less foot action - that has already been noted by many but I would like to see the Will comparator.

And some quite robust evidence shows that hormones don't do much in a short space of time and are not universally effective at reducing perfomance anyway!

This one is an easy read, doesn't have any nasty figures and stats to argue over. It has pros and cons mentioned in the same blunt and factual manner and actually discusses transmen too!

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764

I think it is a Dolphins leaving earth scenario myself. Douglas Adams really knew how to create lines that lived on and on.

I've been looking at Lia Thomas conversations on Twitter (I know, I shouldn't) and saw this:

'the stat of her placing in the 400s was when she was competing in the men’s division while she was transitioning. before her transition she was placing first in men’s leagues. she’s just a good swimmer'

I instinctively think this is bunkum, but I looked on Wikipedia (yes, I know, not exactly peer-reviewed etc etc but I'm not a scientist and can't read hard data).

It looks as if Thomas's performance/ranking has suffered from the transition process:

'during her freshman year [Thomas] recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100… During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.

'She began transitioning using hormone replacement therapy in May 2019… Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning. Thomas's event progression peaked in 2019 for distance swimming, with a drop in times during the 2021–22 season.'

BUT then it says 'Her event progression for sprint swimming reflected a dip at the start of 2021–22 season before returning to near-lifetime bests in the 100 free and a lifetime personal best in the 50 free in 2021.'
So does this mean Thomas had a dip in performance while actually transitioning, but now is getting back to previous – male – form?

He's just trying to derail.

@loopycurtains he will come back and say "But how much of that is down to sociological factors? Has anyone measured that?"

He will consider that a Gotcha! - again.

And I will repeat, not with any large cohorts as it is not physically possible to do in a way that would get past Ethics (think about how you would remove sociological input for one cohort!).

I will also repeat the hint about twin studies. But @greasyshoes won't acknowledge that, again!

It is tedious, he has a very small circle of query, and yet remains persistent!

I am out of academia

No shit, Sherlock!

@greasyshoes look upthread. There is a lovely poster, used by sport science teachers from GCSE garde upwards. It has all sorts of % difference data in it!

What alec said

You are literally an idiot.

thousands of undergrad students repeat long known physiological and biological tests every fucking year... becaue the results are known, can be demonstrated by even the most lacklustre of students, checked against an enormous library of previous data and discussed in detail by every member of every sport science department.

Please cite one study which determines how much of the performance difference between men and women is due to biological differences between the sexes. I'm out of academia, but I can look it up on scihub.

Which completely contradicts everything else you have deigned to post. you DO know that there are physiological differences between the sexes that have an effect of performance!

I didn't contradict myself. I just said gymnastics and dance are different for men and women. I didn't say that men and women aren't capable of doing the same gymnastics and dance routines.

In a nutshell: