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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I opened the can...

157 replies

AsTreesWalking · 18/03/2022 16:30

...worms exited.
Yesterday morning I shared a quiz with some students. There was a question that quoted thus: 'I'm not going down that rabbit hole', and, 'it depends on the context' - what was it that these MPs would not define? My students could not think what it could be. So I told them 'A Woman'. They were most surprised. Then they realised and did a spectacular volte face. I pointed out their cognitive dissonance. I told them why I have a problem with self id, and about rapes in prisons.
They went to another member of staff, and today I was summoned to a member of SLT and told that they had said I was transphobic, and had upset them.
I have had to type up 'my version' of the conversation. How I wish I'd just skipped that question! I'm now afraid that my form will all decide that I am a dreadful person.
Why does wrong think on this topic trump all other evidence of a person's good will?
I refuse to lie to my students. I stand by what i said, It was all true. But I'm feeling afraid, and still shaking.

OP posts:
Hercisback · 18/03/2022 21:35

It is a fact to say 'a trans person is with a penis raped a woman in prison'.

It's a personal opinion to explain why you think self id is dangerous for women.

I agree with your viewpoint OP. You need to be careful how you frame it as a teacher.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2022 21:34

Some people are actually confused because they think she wrote the quiz questions.

Cottonfrenzie · 18/03/2022 21:28

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think people are confused about what happened. A general quiz was compiled by someone else (sounds like a stealth terf) and OP sent it out and in the course of doing it with sixth formers in a discussion group gave the answer and there was a discussion about it. OP put the opposite side to the views the students espoused, which are also her own views.

Anyone who has a problem with it should be campaigning for trans lobby groups to stop giving one sided talks and advice in schools. Look at the much maligned CPS "hate crime" pack telling girls they could be prosecuted for objecting to males in their spaces. Thankfully withdrawn.

No one is confused. She didn't give the opposing view to add balance. According to her posts she gave her personal opinion.

Some posters on here are so focused on the subject (trans/female spaces etc) they are ignoring a teachers obligation to not offer their personal opinion.

I sincerely hope it all gets resolved swiftly next week for the OP, but by "opening the can" she's put herself in a difficult position.

Movingonup22 · 18/03/2022 21:22

Male violence against women and girls is. Or a personal view. It is a fact.

The protection that single sex spaces give women and girls from male violence is not a personsal view. It is a fact.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2022 21:20

I think people are confused about what happened. A general quiz was compiled by someone else (sounds like a stealth terf) and OP sent it out and in the course of doing it with sixth formers in a discussion group gave the answer and there was a discussion about it. OP put the opposite side to the views the students espoused, which are also her own views.

Anyone who has a problem with it should be campaigning for trans lobby groups to stop giving one sided talks and advice in schools. Look at the much maligned CPS "hate crime" pack telling girls they could be prosecuted for objecting to males in their spaces. Thankfully withdrawn.

Bearinatree · 18/03/2022 21:13

Thank you for doing this.

buckeejit · 18/03/2022 21:13

I'm sorry OP. I don't know why it's ok for someone to say TWAW & not ok for another person to say TW are not W. That's pretty reductive I know, but the middle ground here isn't neutral.

KittenKong · 18/03/2022 21:12

Biology isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact.

OwningAllMyMistakes · 18/03/2022 21:09

Then you have to put up with the worms and all they bring.but my question is why do you think it’s up to you to deliver your own opinions to a school class?

UsernameNotAvailableHmm · 18/03/2022 20:31

I'm sure many in your class will one day think back and remember your words, especially when they, or their friend or family members have an unpleasant experience.

You're not a 'dreadful person' and I hope all turns out well for you. I wouldn't be surprised if many agreed with you, but there's this pressure to conform.

ilovesooty · 18/03/2022 20:09

@AsTreesWalking

It was in form time with 6th form. I didn't write the quiz, it gets sent out. I nearly skipped it, then decided to see what they made of it. I didn't 'lecture' them. I went over to a small group and explained why I think self id is dangerous for women. With facts.
The second thing you did was ill advised.
Thisismygcname · 18/03/2022 20:03

www.gov.uk/government/publications/political-impartiality-in-schools/political-impartiality-in-schools

Read this. I think you’re fine.

BurnDownTheDiscoHangTheDJ · 18/03/2022 19:55

You didn’t handle it in the way you should have, sorry. I’m a teacher. TWAW isn’t my area of soap boxing, but I’m a Leftie and have often discussed things that I think the government have done wrong/are handling wrong with my secondary aged students. I’m always very careful to make clear this is my opinion and not fact though. That was your error. It’s galling to have to add a disclaimer to something that you believe wholeheartedly is true, but in the job you need to accept where the political landmines are and navigate them appropriately. You’ve been naive.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/03/2022 19:31

Impartiality has nothing to with what can and cannot be discussed due to age appropriateness. I have no qualms about this topic being discussed in a 6th form. So not sure what you mean?

What I mean is that your views colour what you say. The TRA idiot teachers who tell kids TWAW think they are being impartial.

I think on some topics it's actually better to disclose your personal views, as long as you can recognise why others might, quite validly, disagree and the kids are old enough to understand the nuance.

As for the OP, she certainly was not impartial as she did push her view as the correct view on a group of students

I assumed she didn't put things in that blunt way and was just being brief. Obviously if she really did just walk up with 'I disagree because...' then that's wrong for the reasons you say.

Cottonfrenzie · 18/03/2022 19:18

@Babdoc

Surely it is a teacher’s job to teach facts, not opinions or ideology? Everything OP stated in her post was factual and on record. There are intact transwomen with male genitals in women’s prisons, who have indeed sexually assaulted female inmates. That is not OP’s “belief”, it is objective truth. I wish more teachers had your courage to speak truth, OP. Don’t be intimidated into silence.
It's fine to outline this has been a consequence of self ID. But she explained she personally has an issue with self ID. That's the problem.
Babdoc · 18/03/2022 19:14

Surely it is a teacher’s job to teach facts, not opinions or ideology?
Everything OP stated in her post was factual and on record. There are intact transwomen with male genitals in women’s prisons, who have indeed sexually assaulted female inmates. That is not OP’s “belief”, it is objective truth.
I wish more teachers had your courage to speak truth, OP. Don’t be intimidated into silence.

EmpressCixi · 18/03/2022 19:12

@donquixotedelamancha

As a teacher your job is to be impartial, you did not do this.

Not quite. We certainly can't push views on kids but what you can discuss depends on age and we (especially form tutors) are supposed to get students to think about the topics of the day.

It's perfectly reasonable to discuss a topic like this with 6th form. I do, however think it has to be discussed carefully without pushing one view as correct.

Impartiality has nothing to with what can and cannot be discussed due to age appropriateness. I have no qualms about this topic being discussed in a 6th form. So not sure what you mean?

As for the OP, she certainly was not impartial as she did push her view as the correct view on a group of students:

“I went over to a small group and explained why I think self id is dangerous for women. With facts.”

“I told them why I have a problem with self id, and about rapes in prisons.”

Hercisback · 18/03/2022 19:09

It's reasonable to discuss it with sixth formers (and younger students) but your error was expressing your own views. We have to remain neutral. Had you presented it as "Some people think...." you'd be OK.

Cottonfrenzie · 18/03/2022 19:09

@donquixotedelamancha

As a teacher your job is to be impartial, you did not do this.

Not quite. We certainly can't push views on kids but what you can discuss depends on age and we (especially form tutors) are supposed to get students to think about the topics of the day.

It's perfectly reasonable to discuss a topic like this with 6th form. I do, however think it has to be discussed carefully without pushing one view as correct.

By presenting your own view you are presenting this as the correct view, whether your intention or not.
Cottonfrenzie · 18/03/2022 19:08

Whilst it is tempting with older students to share your personal views you must not. And really you must know that.

I think the posters saying well done are because they agree with your stance. But the issue isn't the topic - it's sharing your views. As a teacher you know you are in a position of influence. Far better to facilitate a discussion based on the quiz but not share your own views.

You clearly are upset and I am sorry for this. I think if I were you I would accept responsibility for sharing a personal view, but push back on being transphobic. I am sure that is a very upsetting thing to be accused - I hope you are ok

donquixotedelamancha · 18/03/2022 19:02

I’m not sure you’ll get much help from your union … mine is very strongly in the TWAW camp.

Doesn't matter, the caseworkers job is to defend the employee. They are not elected or political posts.

Christmas1988 · 18/03/2022 19:01

You have to keep your opinions to yourself and be as neutral as possible. Your job is to teach not brainwash, open and non bias thinking only in the classroom. It’s up to students to make their own minds up.

SoManyTshirts · 18/03/2022 19:00

I’m not sure you’ll get much help from your union … mine is very strongly in the TWAW camp.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/03/2022 19:00

As a teacher your job is to be impartial, you did not do this.

Not quite. We certainly can't push views on kids but what you can discuss depends on age and we (especially form tutors) are supposed to get students to think about the topics of the day.

It's perfectly reasonable to discuss a topic like this with 6th form. I do, however think it has to be discussed carefully without pushing one view as correct.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/03/2022 18:54

It was in form time with 6th form. I didn't write the quiz, it gets sent out."

As a teacher I was going to moan at you that you shouldn't push personal views on kids but that is utterly reasonable.

Given you didn't write the quiz but just discussed when they asked, you will be fine (though do make sure the union, not merely the school rep, are involved).

Well done OP.

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