Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

Yes, sorry @Waitwhat23, you're right, I thought that @sourdoughismyreligion was referring to the post made by @TheLoneNameChanger about transgender prisoners' rights.

Good post btw @TheLoneNameChanger

For me in the past (and a lot of people who I have the conversation with now), I genuinely believed that every transwoman had, or intended to have, the full penis inversion/vaginoplasty/gender reassignment surgery (not sure what exactly it’s called).

I used to be like “oh let them get on with life, where’s the harm to me?”.

Once I realised that the intention for surgery was absolutely not the case I started joining the dots, did a bit more reading up, became aware of self ID, the Karen White case, etc, and here I am.

And no, Article 8 doesn't address pronouns. It might come under 'develop your personal identity' but that doesn't mean others can be held to compelled speech under that aim.

"Article 8: Respect for your private and family life | Equality and Human Rights Commission" www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

I did think this part in particular was interesting-

'The courts have interpreted the concept of ‘private life’ very broadly. It covers things like your right to determine your sexual orientation, your lifestyle, and the way you look and dress. It also includes your right to control who sees and touches your body. For example, this means that public authorities cannot do things like leave you undressed in a busy ward, or take a blood sample without your permission.'

Thinking about that in the context of the six words amendment or the conversations about mixed changing areas or mixed sex hospital accommodation - I've seen plenty of statements from anti woman posters that women have no right to control who sees or touches their body.

Roseglen84 Indeed yes. He actually said that my arguments were the same as those used against gay people 30 years ago. He said the T had always been with the LGB.

it's a 'gay' thing and therefore straight people shouldn't be allowed to have a say. I had a feeling about this during our discussion but then realised it was female socialisation and that the likes of Eddie Izzard would never have such qualms!

Older gay friend (late 50s) totally different scenario. We grew up together and know we are not bigots. We know the difference between the gay clubs and transvestite clubs because we sampled them both back in the day.

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too

None of these males are women, relative virtue or badness has no bearing on it and I don't see it as a basic human right to be treated as something you can never be. Sex isn't an identity.

Therefore many people believe this to be a 'gay rights issue', which of course it absolutely is't. But I think some people in the LGB community feel an affinity with the T, and therefore are defensive about it. They want to stand up for their fellow oppressed community members etc.

Also, for many casual observers who haven't looked past the rainbow lanyard to the steaming pile of shit underneath, they may feel that to speak out or question this is 'being mean' because again it's a 'gay' thing and therefore straight people shouldn't be allowed to have a say. Which again is nonsense.

TheLoneNameChanger
Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too. It's the same logic that says taking passports away from convicted criminals is shit. Fundamental parts of someone's identity needs to be allowed to remain consistent no matter what.

But clearly transwomen are NOT women, as they are males. It is a courtesy to refer to them with female pronouns, not a human right. People who behave badly forfeit any right to courtesy.

I live in the back of beyond, its not at all ‘woke’ here, and don’t actually know any believers in gender ideology personally. I have been raising the issue with friends and family for ages. Five years ago people thought I had a slightly weird obsession, and thought I was exaggerating, as the things I was talking about couldn’t possibly be true. Now they raise it with me, and are as concerned as I am.
Please keep talking everyone, the more the consequences of gender ideology are understood by everyone, the sooner the nonsense will be rolled back.

@TheLoneNameChanger

Ok. I think what we have established here is that the "ideas for spreading the word" are maybe less "conversation starters" and more "things that will mean totally different things to GC and non GC people".

Anyway, thank you for this experience and good night.

See, one of these is a middle aged man who decided to join a girls college team. Can you tell which one of the line up it is? And why?

I dont think people care much about womens rights.

You're right.

I dont think people care much about womens rights.
I find people more responsive if i tackle it from a safeguarding children point of view - particularly from a potentially trans childs rights. So why dont they get evidenced based medicine, can they consent to infertility when adult women struggle to get sterilised, is it ok adults giving them secret advice online they cant share with parents etc.

Crushed = coached

The child was bullied and depressed. She ended up committing suicide. This will open a massive can of worms - and it looks very much like the school was terrified of their reputation and losing funding, and this girl was just a number/$ to them.

Show those twits this story - how many of these is acceptable before the accept that there are some seriously dodgy practices carried out by people who are supposedly there to protect kids.

One of my friends did say something quite interesting though… she said she would find it very difficult if the things I said were true and it would be hard for her to deal with. So she is in extreme denial.

This is why they get so angry when they are forced to admit things are true. The pp above is entitled to their views, but they simply think trans people's identity rights are more important than women's rights. That's not the kind of person it's worth trying to persuade, it's like a religious belief. The people in denial are the ones who can see the problems but choose to pretend they aren't real. The la la la I can't hear you.

WeeBison I had the same experience with a work colleague (gay man). I would not have started the conversation but he had called the women in the room "cis" so I took him aside afterwards and asked him not to call me that as I found it offensive. He was apologetic. But a few weeks later, we had a huge hour long debate and he was exactly the same as your friends. He had an excuse for everything... men get raped in prison too, older gay people might have wanted to transition if they'd been given the chance, a friend who wished they had had puberty blockers, doctors at Tavistock should be trusted, identities should be affirmed, important to say "cis", etc etc etc. I actually came away shell shocked.

On the other hand, caught up with an old friend a few weeks ago (also gay man) and he was totally 100% GC and very up to date with everything that's going on.

The problem is I have TRA friends and they simply don’t believe the things I tell them. Apparently it’s made up right wing propaganda. So the karen white prison rape? Didn’t happen. The worries about child transition by therapists at the Tavistock? Not true. They’re doctors, they know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t transition children unless the best science was behind it! The WIi spa story - made up to demonise trans people. Unfortunately for some people they have to discover these things themselves. Every time I try to tell them about my concerns they reply that they just aren’t real. One of my friends did say something quite interesting though… she said she would find it very difficult if the things I said were true and it would be hard for her to deal with. So she is in extreme denial.

I think @TheLoneNameChanger has been very helpful engaging in this in a calm and respectful way. I strongly disagree on some opinions but the whole point is we need to have debate where both sides of the picture are represented and which don't end in mud slinging before any actual conversation has happened.

Every GC person who is concerned with erosion of women's rights should be grateful for any moderate pro trans view and not attempt to shut it down by making them feel like they won't bother engaging next time. Because otherwise the TRA voices will only get louder and issues won't get resolved because the majority of people power is those in the middle who aren't quite sure. People who are torn and feel sympathy for both sides. People who need to see calm, fair debate and then figure out what they'd like to see in society for women's rights and trans rights.

The PP about JKR says: There are lots online if you Google, which go through her article point by point.

Could you please post a link to what you consider to be the best, as I've heard this before but never managed to find anything that does this, when I've googled.

I would mention that I'm not expecting you will, but I am willing to be surprised. Maybe that's what you think is out there, as that's what everyone says, but nobody has actually written such an analysis, and nobody has really looked, because they just believe what everyone else says?

@TheLoneNameChanger apologies you did answer the Rachel Dolezal question I think.

What I’d like to ask then is, if someone else tried to do what she did without her troubled background as an explanation, how would you feel about it? I’m not white either and anyone is welcome to admire, respect, even identify with and participate in aspects of my cultural background, they would be welcome if acting in good faith and with respect to the rest of the community. They could convert into a religion, no problem. But to say that they are actually Black or Asian or whatever? No, because that would be a fiction. I’d be interested to hear what you think about it. Because for the life of me, I cannot understand the difference between feeling like a woman when you’re not, as opposed to feeling of a different race when you’re not.

@TheLoneNameChanger I was actually interested in your thoughts and arguments until you got to that bit and then you went totally off-piste, no idea why and there was a strange disconnect between your other responses and that particular one (the JKR comments).

I agree with your point that there are shitty people in all social groups and the majority should not be held accountable for that, as a principle. Unfortunately though, to allow for male-bodied people to enter female spaces, that does mean ignoring a basic tenet of our safeguarding principles, what do you feel about that? I personally don’t think our safeguarding principles, which exist for a reason and have emerged from terrible situations in the past, should be compromised for anyone, it doesn’t matter who they are. We are all vulnerable if they are compromised.

I also get your point about wishing for more freedom in gender expression, we pretty much all feel the same here. It’s the labelling that’s problematic. I grew up in a time when there was much greater freedom of expression and there was a lot less angst about it, we seem to have gone backwards.

Your point about not feeling English until you were abroad - sense of nationality is not innate though is it, as gender is claimed to be. If you’d been born in France, you would have just felt like a French person abroad instead.

Re Rachel Dolezal, I also have sympathy now that I understand her background more. However, what she did was beyond the pale, totally unacceptable, no matter what the reasons. It doesn’t make sense, she can’t explain it and neither can anyone else, without seeing it through the prism of her trauma. I’m not sure if she has sought therapy but if she has, I doubt anyone would find that odd or a means of ‘conversion therapy’. You didn’t address the original question, what is the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

Anyway, thanks for attempting to answer the questions and engage. It’s important.

Ok. I think what we have established here is that the "ideas for spreading the word" are maybe less "conversation starters" and more "things that will mean totally different things to GC and non GC people".

Anyway, thank you for this experience and good night.

@BootsAndRoots - what? My post? I mean, yes. I'm not gender critical. I'm generally pro trans rights with some reservations and only stopped by because the OP said they hoped someone of a trans sympathetic nature would respond to their bullet points so I don't exactly know what you are accusing me of?

@TheLoneNameChanger
Wow, quite the clutch of bigoted themes identified in Harry Potter there….anti-semitism, racism, homophobia, paedophilia and of course it goes without saying, transphobia…

Someone should tell Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson et al to distance themselves from the film franchise, I’m sure they would be rushing to do that if they only realised….🙄