Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010)
It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities)
It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

SparklingConsequences : 'Of course everyone has a gender identity.'

No, sorry, SparklingConsequences, they really do not. There is no such thing as gender identity.

‘If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria.’
– Professor Alex Byrne, see What is Gender Identity?

Or, perhaps, you can change our minds by telling us of someone who has 'found a way of detecting its presence', and letting us know what this way is?

To be clear about this: Byrne argues that you are mistaken. Me, too; I am not accusing you of being a liar, rather that you are in error in your claim. I know this seems crazy to you: how could you be mistaken about something that is so obvious as well as so important to you? To you, I understand, it is almost impossible to credit that anyone could sincerely deny what you think about this. But I do deny it, and as far as I can tell, I do so in full knowledge of why you make the mistake you do.

It is hard for you. I know. Nevertheless, Just try, SparklingConsequences. Try reading Byrne's piece with an open mind; try to understand what he says, asking yourself as you go along, 'Why should I believe anything this person says?' Be serious. It is not so very difficult, truth told. What is difficult is to maintain the requisite open mind on something like this. But try. Truth is important.

This thread is about changing minds. Remember Oliver Cromwell to the Kirk: ''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

[As to what might change my mind about this? Easy. Tell me a way of detecting the presence of gender identity as a causal agent in dysphoria, as Byrne (quoted above) claims has not yet been done. (Of course, 'Asking people if they have it' will not do: think about guardian angels and so on to see why.) Seriously; if this can be detected in some way, I will believe its existence established. Until then, I maintain there is no such thing. Seems fair?]

It's the same old story with JKR, when asked what she said, we get the dead cat strategy of going on about supposed anti-Semitism, racism etc. Basically to convict her on the basis of the sheer number of allegations.

Someone once directed my to a 1 hour video critiquing her essay (I haven't got the time for something like that), but it was clear that they quickly diverted to generalised transphobia from other sources and then made tenuous claims that JKR supported those sorts of people and arguments.

It's quite striking that these people will never spell it out.

They do think it's very wrong and terrible what she said, but they realise they can't articulate it in a way that doesn't sound misogynistic.

• What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

I see - for the umpteenth time - this hasn't been can't be answered.

@TheLoneNameChanger If trans women are women…
@DrDinosaur But clearly transwomen are NOT women, as they are males.

People who believe TWAW stop making sense very quickly. (It’s just as well TLNC didn’t start with that, prefaced with an "If" though it was, else I might not have read the rest. I always want to ask, "In what way?" Needless to say I have yet to read a coherent proof.) TWAW is the fundamental problem, and makes communication difficult, to say the least.

'there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race'

Hair dye, false tan, and perming lotion have the same effect on your 'phenotypic race' as hormones and surgery do on your 'phenotypic sex.
An entirely cosmetic effect.

We call breastplates breastplates. Why is this? Because they are mostly (traditionally away) worn my men?

“ferretface

Re "chestfeeding'" to be polite to transmasculine people. Why is breastfeeding an offensive or triggering term? It is factual. When male people are diagnosed with breast cancer (which is rarer than in women, but it happens), it is called breast cancer, it is not called chest cancer - in fact chest cancer would probably imply something very different and be the purview of a different medical specialty.

Why are words which describe factual and observable reality being made taboo?“

Absolutely. Read this:
Frontiers | Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language | Global Women's Health

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR2LxA0PL7cJ0SbS_Jq9df5jfLbCCwfVz86vd7aYWkeAq23liD_TpfEpuqA

Many thanks to the posters engaging. I do get fed up with slogans and inaccuracies. Like for example Karen White - convicted of 2 sexual assaults in women's prison, not rape. Does that make sexual assault ok? Of course bloody not. But I like accuracy. Exaggeration gets nobody anywhere.

I hope I accept the people in my life that are trans. What does that mean, exactly? Most of the time it doesn't matter if the people I know are male or female. But yes, I notice and I'm sad when people medicalise their lives or when their unhappiness seems to be taken out on themselves. My husband was on another of medication and I think he needed it, but I certainly wasn't pleased that he needed it, I wished he didn't.

People don't care about women's rights, and they think women shouldn't be talking about them either. My daughter and son in law, both nearly 30 and not especially woke, hardly speak to me now because I raised some of the issues I had come across on this board and elsewhere. Apparently talking about women's hard fought for rights being eroded made them "uncomfortable". My daughter, who has a university education and a highly paid job in IT thanks to women before her, doesn't want to "engage" because I'm not on her "wavelength". So now I don't talk to anyone about this, except online (and I'm careful to be anonymous).
Older women, mothers, and feminists, are unmentionables as far as many millennials and Gen Z are concerned, and I feel it's up to them now to sort it out or deal with the consequences.

Re "chestfeeding'" to be polite to transmasculine people. Why is breastfeeding an offensive or triggering term? It is factual. When male people are diagnosed with breast cancer (which is rarer than in women, but it happens), it is called breast cancer, it is not called chest cancer - in fact chest cancer would probably imply something very different and be the purview of a different medical specialty.

Why are words which describe factual and observable reality being made taboo?

Do you understand what the issues actually ARE? That harm will come to women and it will be hard to identify formally because stats will be misleading - are just two of the issues.
Nothing about the sky or anything philosophical. Real harm.

It's quite telling how patronising and sexist these posts come across as. Silly little women and our concerns.

and sticking them in female competition is really stupid..as seen with Mack Beggs.

No one here believes that some women should be able to take substances in sport that give them an unfair advantage which would be banned for anyone else.

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..

Perhaps you could summarise? Why should posters believe you if you can't articulate your point?

What does a 'gender abolitionist' believe and how can that be reconciled with the position that gender is important enough to change how a person is recognised in law, policy, society, etc?

The issue with self-ID is complex, In the UK its about marriage, dignity and death certs - everything else is EA 2010 (and Acts before). When self-ID gets passed in Scotland, the sky will not fall in and women won't be erased.

Do you understand what the issues actually ARE? That harm will come to women and it will be hard to identify formally because stats will be misleading - are just two of the issues.
Nothing about the sky or anything philosophical. Real harm.

Do people have an internal sense of their sexed self. Do they have opinions and thoughts about their sexed body. Of course everyone has a gender identity.

That's really interesting Sparkling - you talk about 'sex' as in biology, but can you try and explain what that has to do with gender? My thoughts about my body are directly informed by what my body is like. I thought gender was separate from bodies?

It's all you talk about.

Do you believe this to be true? Everyone who posts on here, you think this is all we talk about?
Or do you think that perhaps a subsection of a forum about sex and gender might usually contain posts relating to sex and gender, but that doesn't reflect the importance of that topic to each individual person posting on here? It's certainly not true for me. 'trans' topics probably constitute about 1% of what I talk about, or less.

Sex and gender, probably a lot more, as it informs a lot of one's worldview when you're on the oppressed end of it.

What would help is honesty.

What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

Really? As one of my work colleagues said the other day "I heard JK Rowling was kicking off again grimacing

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..do I believe that she's one of those of you who would stick us in camps if they could..no.

I don't understand what you are saying here.
Can you answer the question by quoting what she has said that you find problematic?

“What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, “

Many trans women have not changed anything about themselves with chemicals, and have intact penises. But even when they have taken measures to feminize themselves with hormones and surgery they are still males. ( The same with trans men). Just as when Michael Jackson bleached his skin and had cosmetic surgery he was still black.

The assumption is that there is one trans community or that a 'movement' exists at all. Generally people know very little about us, particularly GCs. It's bizarre. I'm a transsexual, I know other trans people, often I argue with them.

Does everybody have a gender identity?

Do people have an internal sense of their sexed self. Do they have opinions and thoughts about their sexed body. Of course everyone has a gender identity.

What are kids being taught about gender id in school?

Haven't a clue. They should be taught that LGBTQ ppl exist and that fine - perhaps some history?

Why did this all seem to have come out of nowhere?

It didn't. It's mostly media moral panic - 600 articles in the print media in 2020 and it's gotten far worse..over 0.5% of the population, it's utterly insane. More people come out as trans, but that's not exactly surprising - we see it with every societal progression

Is transition safe? Does transition work?

Kidding me? It's been life-changing..and possibly life-saving. If I'd remained in the closet, I'd at least be in the same horrible mess that I was before transitioning..and that was bad.

What's going on with so many kids identifying as trans out of the blue?

There's a lot of kids coming out as non-binary. Is there a increase in kids actually transitioning? It's difficult to tell - referrals to GICs tell us very little when the number of kids actually having a medical intervention (i.e. PBs) is so low.

Why are the new euphemisms for 'female'—’bleeder,’ ‘uterus-haver,’ ‘menstruator’—so degrading to women?

Defining people by the functions of their body is dehumanising. There's easy solutions for the whole 'inclusive language' thing (i.e. "woman or anyone with a cervix", "man or anyone with a prostate") which I've frequently suggested, but then get shouted at anyway because you don't want us to exist.

Why are trans demands so lopsided, with much demanded of women and very little demanded of men?

Because trans women are demonised and trans men are infantilised (and ignored) - the issues are the same. Trying to raise trans masc voices is incredibly frustrating and there's still people who don't believe that trans men exist, despite a rich history.

Why do ideologically-noncompliant women take so much more heat from trans activists than violent men?

I spend most of the my time arguing with cis, patriarchal men mostly..online it not uncommon at all for it to be pro-trans women (cis and trans) arguing with anti-trans men. They are some of the most sadistic of the anti-trans activists..with exception to some like PP.

IRL it's completely different. People are accepting and there's a lot of love.

Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?

There's lots of cis women who are paedophiles (guardian estimated 60K in 2009), do they become unwomen because they are terrible people? If hitler was gay should I call him straight because of his genocidal tendencies? Terrible people exist in all groups

Why are women’s movements being co-opted?

They're not

Does anyone abuse self-id policies?

The issue with self-ID is complex, In the UK its about marriage, dignity and death certs - everything else is EA 2010 (and Acts before). When self-ID gets passed in Scotland, the sky will not fall in and women won't be erased.

What’s the difference between a ‘transwoman’ and a man who says he’s a woman?

Binary trans women are extremely likely to be in transition (like of the ?hundreds? I know, I know one who can't use HRT because it makes her ill (and it's incredibly upsetting for her). If a person makes a declarative statement "I am an X" then whatever, but I'd expect them to use facilities of their natal sex (like, assuming it's someone who is not transitioning, then they don't have the PC of gender reassignment anyway) and to understand that a lot of people are not going to agree with them.

How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?

That's up to the governing authorities...and all the utter hideousness that is directed at her should be directed at the NCAA. If it's fair and evidenced then trans women should accept exclusion in sports, but trans men and trans women who have not been thru a male puberty..and yes, there are trans men who do well..and sticking them in female competition is really stupid..as seen with Mack Beggs.

What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, trans-racial people are not 0.5% of the population, there's no history of research into trans-racial vs cis-racial ppl etc.

Jenner is a terrible human being tho - she's one of those awful trans people who I spoke about above.

Why does gender id come up all the time, when trans activism doesn’t really have anything to do with menopause care / completed suicide etc

..because it gets rammed down my throat online by people whose only focus is on my existence. IRL it's much different.

What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

Really? As one of my work colleagues said the other day "I heard JK Rowling was kicking off again grimacing

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..do I believe that she's one of those of you who would stick us in camps if they could..no.

Does gender id belong at work?

Wot? I'm trans at work..what do you think, I take my tits off before I go to work? Do people want to gender me correctly? Of course, the vast majority of people are decent

Isn't it all kind of sexist and regressive?

I'm a gender abolitionist ffs

Why is it so hard to talk about any of this?

It's all you talk about. It's incredibly tiresome..like this whole subforum and the ones in diverged from are / were full of trans moral panic. Sometimes I will try to talk to the not-sadistic GCs and post up pictures of my cats and whatnot..it very rarely works, but I have had a couple of nice convos out of many hundreds.

I'd like to see a world where people were accepted as their chosen gender 90% of the time

Why? Should people be accepted as their chosen age?

I'd like to see a world where people were accepted as their chosen gender 90% of the time with some sensitive and compassionate and nuanced conversations about the 10% when this is challenging but right now the whole subject has become so aggressively policed I think that's impossible.

I'm not being goady but that is what we DID have, in a fuzzy sort of way (some people's lines being maybe 80% of situations, others' 95%, sort of thing).

We accepted TW as "honorary women " to be polite and understanding, with the belief that these were people who desperately wanted to be the opposite sex but weren't literally women. The 10% where they were not treated as literal women was in women's spaces, prisons, shortlists, sports teams etc. And now they are demanding that 10% which is detrimental to women.

*Does anyone abuse self-id policies?

Probably. Shitty humans beings will abuse most things. That's not a reason to not have them exist - like - the place women are most likely to be assaulted is a public park. But I'd not want parks closed entirely because those spaces are being abused*

In the case of, for example, prisons where self id is demonstrably being abused, the vulnerable women (80% of Scottish female prisoners have experienced a head injury as a result of previous domestic violence as an illustrator) who have been incarcerated have no choice but to be in that space and are at the mercy of the policies made, which in this case put the validation of transwomen (many of whom have been convicted of violent sexual offences against women) above women's safety. This was made clear during the recent MOJ judicial review.

Mentioning parks is whataboutery and I fail to see how self ID would be relevant in that context (unless it was a women's park - but those aren't allowed to exist). Self ID is currently leading to women being harmed in prisons.