Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

Someone once directed my to a 1 hour video critiquing her essay (I haven't got the time for something like that), but it was clear that they quickly diverted to generalised transphobia from other sources and then made tenuous claims that JKR supported those sorts of people and arguments.

What a surprise. No one has time for that.

It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

No, if you have a GRC you are automatically accommodated in the female estate because you are legally considered female "for all (well, most) purposes". There is also case law where a male trans person wasn't granted their demands to be treated differently to other male prisoners due to the fact that they didn't have a GRC. There is no point taking a patronising tone with women here, this isn't our first rodeo and many here understand the legal position at least as well as you do.

Why should we have to write an essay for every single person when plenty of them exist already?

Because I want to engage back and forth, not be directed to read some shitty "essay". You do understand how discourse works, I imagine?

Why would you be asked to provide a people's birth certificates @PrelateChuckles - people obtain their own? Or do you supply fake BCs?

And obvs none expects you to name individuals, just an idea of the sorts of situations where people are asked?

SparklingConsequences: Thank you for the reference. Not really helpful, however: it tells us ‘The term gender identity refers to a person’s innermost sense of their own gender …’, so – far from trying to give us any way of detecting the presence of gender identity – it leaves us pretty much in the dark as to what this latter is actually supposed to be.

(Byrne, I recall, dealt with this and related matters in the piece I referenced. I found his treatment convincing. You?)

The paper you reference explicitly deals, not at all with gender identity per se, but exclusively with the effects of hormone therapy on brain function, effects often inferred, given the paucity of (physical) neuroanatomical evidence. Interesting to some, perhaps, but nothing that might conceivably convince a sceptic of the existence of our elusive gender identity (in Byrne’s sense). How might we detect the presence of this latter? We are left in the dark in which we began.

There is more.

SparklingConsequences, you say you ‘just translate it [ sc the idea of gender identity] to refer to my own internal thoughts, opinions etc about my own sexed body.’

Hmm. If that is what gender identity is – one’s thoughts and opinions about one's body – then, yes indeed everyone has a gender identity in that that everyone thinks about her body sometimes. (Noting, perhaps, that all human bodies are sexed in some way, whilst leaving aside puzzles about what external thoughts might be.)

And, perhaps, we might allow that thoughts about one's body might in some way mis-match with sex and so could be the cause of gender dysphoria. But that cannot stand once we realise that (certain) thoughts about one’s body are what constitute gender dysphoria.

You say your dysphoria is anyway ‘mostly body dysphoria’. I wonder if this means you assimilate your condition to what the NHS calls ‘BDD’ ( ‘Body Dysmorphic Disorder’ see BDD)? – 'a … condition where a person spends a lot of time worrying about flaws in their appearance.'

If your dysphoria is not similar to BDD, I wonder if you might possibly explain the difference between the two? NHS explains gender dysphoria (see gender dysphoria) – as '… a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.'

Of course any such explanation might add to the ‘pain’ you have felt, so please refrain if that is the case. I wonder, though, how your ‘non-focus’ on the idea of gender identity sits with the (NHS) notion of gender dysphoria as caused in some way by this very thing.

Of course if Byrne is right and there really is no such thing as gender identity, what will be left of the distinction between BDD and gender dysphoria?

… In any case, the matter stands as before. You have given me no reason to believe there is any such thing as gender identity; neither has the paper you reference. We may have cleared up some of the undergrowth, as it were, but still Byrne’s No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence stands tall.

Given this, far from everyone having a gender identity, it seems rather that we have no reason to think there is any such thing as gender identity.

No?

Sparkling - I, and most transsexuals I know aren't hyperfocussed on the idea of gender identity and I just translate it to refer to my own internal thoughts, opinions etc about my own sexed body..it's the gender dysphoria (in my case, mostly body dysphoria) that is the pain that leads me to change my sex (phenotypic, morphological etc).

Given that I have trouble understand what is meant by 'gender', would it be incorrect or offensive (I'm being genuine! Hate that I have to keep saying this) to describe someone in your situation as 'a person that deeply wishes to be, and be treated/read as, the opposite sex'? Is there any requirement to invoke this indefinable thing called gender?

Before the self-id debates etc I always assumed gender dysphoria to be somewhat of a body dysphoric issue. I have heard so much back and forth on all this (how gender doesn't actually relate to the sexed body/how it does) I don't know where things are tbh.

Such as?

You... want me to name the people and services I have provided birth certificates for? On a public forum?
I seriously don't care if you don't believe me when I correct you. Carry on being wrong - doesn't affect me.

cherwell.org/2021/10/09/gender-abolition-why-it-matters/

I'm not quite bonkers enough to realise that this is pie-in-the-sky rn, but a tran can dream (also, the article makes the oft-made mistake of not realising that most trans people have body gender dysphoria, so would still be transsexual, but hey, it would free people from the current toxic gender binary and is a laudable aim)

Thanks @SparklingConsequences - so to summarise, you believe in the elimination of socialised gender roles. As do gender critical people.

You didn't explain how can that be reconciled with the position that gender is important enough to change how a person is recognised in law, policy, society, etc. Without gender roles, how could anyone 'live as a woman'?
We would only have sex to find out if someone is male or female, and both sexes could be as masculine, feminine, whatever as they please (as I have been arguing for donkeys' years). All I can see in your link is 'Rather, any conception of gender would arise from within, and be part of one’s self-identity, rather than a tool used by society to prescribe a role or identity'.

I still don't understand how you would have gender if males and females were no longer assumed to have inherently different characteristics, interests, attitudes, personalities, capabilities etc (as they do in a gendered society). What would 'gender from within' be? Can you try and articulate it?

No one checks your birth certificate before you enter a space or use a service.

That's untrue. I've had to provide them for people.

Yes, I do know the issues, thank you..and you're doing the usual thing of not actually naming any harms that scary self-ID would do.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010)
It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities)
It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

Come on then - be honest please - what do you understand the issues to be, after listening to women? You handwave about 'the sky falling in' but you haven't addressed them.
What do you think the ideal policies regarding spaces, sports and prisons would be? Be specific.

[quote Leafstamp]Although answers to the questions in the OP are interesting, what I was curious about, in terms of hearing from TRAs, is the question in the thread title :

What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

For example, is this enough: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507790-Hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-because-attacker-transgender[/quote]
Would you also apply the same logic to BAME/POC/BLM and withdraw or remove support/rights of said group because of individuals committing crimes? That can apply to any demographic, should all gay rights be removed because of individual crimes (just an example). Would it solve anything, self id isn't law so it's happening without self id laws. Why is the entire trans community responsible for rapists? Guilt by association?

SparklingConsequences
Yes, I do know the issues, thank you..and you're doing the usual thing of not actually naming any harms that scary self-ID would do.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010)
It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities)
It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

This is just bullshit. The reality is Self ID would undermine the Equality Act, because (and I know this because it's already happened in Ireland) the legislation basically states that by changing gender you are for all legal purposes changing your sex. By filling out a form .

So yes it would affect spaces for women - it already is (see the story about the women raped on a hospital ward)

Yes it would affect sports for women - it already does (see the story about the man winning the women's swimming trophy)

Yes it would affect prisons - it already has (see Karen White and many others).

These are just a handful of recent examples. So many more are not even being reported.

If you think Self ID would have no affect, you're not looking very hard. Or maybe you just don't want to see, because you're too caught up in your own self delusion. Which the rest of us should not be compelled to participate in.

Anyway, thanks for the responses (aside from the one comparing fake tan with sex hormones which was just ridiculous).

Have a lovely day.

I'm not quite bonkers enough to realise that this is pie-in-the-sky rn, but a tran can dream (also, the article makes the oft-made mistake of not realising that most trans people have body gender dysphoria, so would still be transsexual, but hey, it would free people from the current toxic gender binary and is a laudable aim)

Fake tan, weirdly enough, doesn't.

“SparklingConsequences

ScrollingLeaves
“What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, “

I had replied:
“Many trans women have not changed anything about themselves with chemicals, and have intact penises. But even when they have taken measures to feminize themselves with hormones and surgery they are still males. ( The same with trans men). Just as when Michael Jackson bleached his skin and had cosmetic surgery he was still black.”

Then SparklingConsequences replied

“According to the national transgender survey 2010 of trans and GNC ppl 85% are on or trying to obtain HRT. Just binary trans people would be higher than that..like if you knew the community, you'd know we go to crazy lengths to get HRT as it makes the most difference to our pain, to the extent of buying from the grey market or spending huge amounts of money to go private.“

@SparklingConsequences

My information had been from the following:

This is from Fair Play for Women

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

How many transgender people medically transition?
In 2011, GIRES estimated that only 20% of the UK transgender population were likely to seek medical treatment for their condition at some stage. Based on a UK trans prevalence of 1% and assuming a 50:50 split of males and females that means there are 200,000 male-born transgender people in the UK will no body modifications whatsoever. Of the 50,000 trans-identifying males that do seek medical treatment most of these would be expected to be undergoing hormone treatment and/or breast implants. Only a very small proportion of this 20% will have genital reconstruction surgery.“

So, if this is correct, there are roughly 200,000 male born transgender people with no body modifications whatsoever. And of the roughly 50,000 remaining male born trans gender people who do take hormones and have breast implant surgery, only 1000 have had genital reconstruction surgery,

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6235900/

Is transition safe? Does transition work?
How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?

I’ve had quite a bit of success recently with these two questions.

The first one particularly in relation to medical transition of children - the majority of people in my (reasonably left wing) circle of friends balk at children being prescribed strong drugs without a decent evidence base, and recognise that children cannot give informed consent to infertility or reduced sexual function.

The second one really peaked my (usually uninterested) family. We all like sport, and often get together to watch big events. Lia Thomas was was brought up by other people today. The general consensus was that people should live however they choose most of the time, but some things (sports, prisons, hospital wards etc) should be segregated by sex.

@SparklingConsequences JKR is doing amazing things, she personally donated £1m to Ukraine and her charity is doing more, but the media don't want to report on things like that.

Of course everyone has a gender identity.

I don’t have one. I have awareness of the biology of my body and the benefits / limitations it has. I’m aware how it is similar to other women and how it affects the way I’m treated. But none of that is part of my internal sense of self.

I do believe I have a soul though. An inner essence that defines who I am, separate to my body. But I accept that others don’t believe in my soul, because I cannot provide any evidence for it.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010). It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities).It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

Stonewall are campaigning to remove the exemptions in the Equality Act.

In reality, I don't care much for JKR - she's just another billionaire who could be doing amazing things, but is instead hyping up moral panic. It's a statement on inequality in our society that billionaires exist at all.