Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

“IamAporcupine

Please would you link if possible to any information about the 15%/85% sex non conforming children/ later desisting children?
Also how many might simply be gay if left alone?

@ScrollingLeaves
here are some:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25231780/
www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full”

@IamAporcupine
Thank you for that link.

Please would you link if possible to any information about the 15%/85% sex non conforming children/ later desisting children?
Also how many might simply be gay if left alone?

@ScrollingLeaves
here are some:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25231780/
www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

As far as I can tell from being on here, it's made up of people who don't read questions, pretend to misunderstand questions, and can't answer questions truthfully.

Strong Venn overlap with "right-wing politicians", I notice...

Read the OP. It's a question she posed.

This new article by Kathleen Stock is very interesting. (Someone started another thread with the article as it’s subject.)

Entering the parallel universe of transactivism

kathleenstock.substack.com/p/entering-the-parallel-universe-of
kathleenstock.substack.com/p/entering-the-parallel-universe-of?s=r

If anyone were to offer a coherent explanation of the notion of a 'gender identity', universal in humans and causing dysphoria when mismatched with sex, and give an empirical way of detecting its presence, I would allow that the trans movement is not what I think it to be, namely a movement based on an incoherent fantasy.

Meanwhile I will continue to tell the truth about the trans movement.

So facts have to be rather artificially squashed into the template of “philosophical belief”, which was originally meant to contain things like religion, passifism, etc. In the real world we still know such things are facts. “The earth is round” doesn’t cease to be a fact just because an employment tribunal has to construe it in terms of philosophical belief.

YY, that was what I was trying to say. You expressed it very clearly.

I'd like to see a world where people were accepted as their chosen gender 90% of the time with some sensitive and compassionate and nuanced conversations about the 10% when this is challenging but right now the whole subject has become so aggressively policed I think that's impossible

@TheLoneNameChanger I'm heavily GC but this is also all I want! By and large, I'm a typical Liberal leftie, live and let live, wear whatever you want, smash stereotypes etc. But I cant stand by and see ALL women's rights eroded simply for the feelings of a very small minority (especially when that minority is spectacularly vocal about not giving a shit about those very same women's rights)

There are situations where stating facts can be harassment. If my husband had been greeted every morning by his boss saying 'HELLO JEWISH EMPLOYEE' and people at the canteen had said every day 'As a JEW you probably can't eat pork, can you? As a JEW are you staying at home this Friday evening?' this would be stating facts, and yet an environment where his religion was constantly being harped on would undoubtedly be hostile.

I'm not aware that anything remotely like this is being discussed in this case.

'Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too.'

Yes.

But of course, it's a politeness to start with, not a fact. So no, the shitty people can't rely on it and their 'identity' is none of my concern.

Lia Thomas has been an absolute godsend for bringing this conversation into the public domain. Lots of people talking about it in the staffroom today (secondary school). Every single person was in agreement that it was entirely unfair. It also opened the door for lots of people to give examples of times they've been called "transphobic" (one of which probably was transphobic, but most of which were of course nothing of the sort).

It gave me great pleasure to just sit back quietly and listen, knowing that I wasn't leading the conversation at all, but that all these people were (finally!) coming to the same conclusion as me.

Sex is not a matter of belief when it comes to males keeping their inheritance is it? And that was clearly written into the original law.

It only seems to go one way. Hint: it is always in favour of the penis people. Or as we call them 'men'. Never ever in favour of the vagina ones. Or as we call them 'women'.

Sorry for going off topic, but It’s unfair to say that because of a particular piece of legislation the view thar “sex is immutable” is a “belief” rather than a “fact.” When the equality act was being debated, parliament couldn’t foresee a situation in which someone would be fired for stating a fact, so didn’t include protection for facts in the act. The problem is, if “sex is immutable” is regarded as a fact for equality law purposes then there is no protection for workers who are fired for saying facts. So facts have to be rather artificially squashed into the template of “philosophical belief”, which was originally meant to contain things like religion, passifism, etc. In the real world we still know such things are facts. “The earth is round” doesn’t cease to be a fact just because an employment tribunal has to construe it in terms of philosophical belief. I think it’s very fair to say that the claim that women are adult females is a fact.

Similarly its decidedly off for supposed TRAs to try and doxx, dogpile, harrass GC women who aren't being transphobic (it's also counter productive tbh).

Then you think it is fine for TRAs to doxx, dogpile, harass women if they think they are being transphobic?

And if you define 'transphobic' as 'anything I think is transphobic' then we're all fair game then?

For the lurkers, this is the problem in a nutshell. They cannot explain themselves, it is all based on what they feel, and anyone asking questions basically gets whatever the TRA decides they deserve.

The thread has moved on a bit but I was surprised to see @sparklingconsequences say they were a gender abolitionist. If you're a gender abolitionist, I'm genuinely unsure as to why it matters what sex you are? I really truly believe that people should be allowed to express themselves however they like, clothes don't have to be gendered, men can like pink and wear makeup and women can have short hair and be plumbers, etc etc. I know I'm simplifying massively here. But sex is different, it is our biological reality and can't ever be changed with hormones or surgery and is what should remain the protected characteristic. If gender didn't exist, what would be the purpose of identifying as a different sex?

Yes I was agreeing and reinforcing the message.

I think that's basically what I'm saying eresh? Covid meno brain being a bit spluttery today.

Society gradually evolved the associated sex/ gender stereotypes. That "trans" is obsessed with.

It's based on sexist stereotypes- invented by society.

That's evolved purely because of the reproductive abilities between the sexes, including how long it takes to raise a baby, which is entirely due to our brain and pelvis size (see prof Alice Roberts...) and and also general average biological attributes.

It is entirely based on sex and reproductive role, there is literally no other reason for the concept of "woman" to exist.

There is a group of people who believe that it is possible for the word "woman" to have a meaning separate to "adult female person". They cannot define what that alternative is, just like you can't, CrowUpNorth without relying on circular arguments or sex based stereotypes. That is the only reason there is any question as to why it is or it isn't "worthy of respect in a democratic society" to hold the belief that sex is immutable. Because those people have an ideological belief that "woman" is an essence, Profoundly disingenuous stuff from you.

That might come as a surprise to Maya Forstater's lawyers when they (rightly) proved that the belief in the immutability of sex (and therefore that woman = biological human female is a philosophical belief

It's a belief and protected in Equality law in the same way that atheism or veganism is, that it's right to be able to disbelieve or believe things which other people contest. A statement that people don't change biological sex is a fact.

EverySporkIsSacred : your child is lucky to have you

Trans is an invented condition / state of mind / opinion / 'medical' condition.

It does not exist in the natural world.

See also; religion.

It's based on sexist stereotypes- invented by society.

That's evolved purely because of the reproductive abilities between the sexes, including how long it takes to raise a baby, which is entirely due to our brain and pelvis size (see prof Alice Roberts...) and and also general average biological attributes.

It's the new "opium of the masses" and people are making a lot of money out of it.

It also took the realisation that should one of my daughters be incarcerated, hospitalised or just want to use female only changing rooms that they could be at risk of indecent exposure or abuse when they should be protected from this.

I never expected this.