JK Rowling article

For anyone who doubted the truth of the BBC article on the matter - here we have someone who is actively supporting exactly the ideology described therein.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

Well, at least it's illustrative for all those people who keep telling us that nobody really says these things.

Yes, this is here, and it's also being talked about in court in relation to Maya Forstater today.

Madam Bunbury really had the right idea. A poster who from the outset presents gc feminists as "aligned with people wishing to roll back abortion rights, promote misogynistic viewpoints and homophobia" while posting views that advocate coercive control is likely not to be posting in good faith.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4267555-Bunburys-Thirteenth-edition-unlucky-for-some

So you're saying that refusing to have sex with a transwoman because said transwoman is male is 'bigoted'? You're actually going there?

Well, at least it's illustrative for all those people who keep telling us that nobody really says these things.

ElaineFuchs Transwomen are men, they are of the male sex and man refers to an adult male human. It is impossible for a woman to be a transwoman because they don't meet the defining criteria of being of the male sex.

A lesbian is same sex attracted therefore perfectly entitled and right to treat men, however they present or identify, as being members of the sex to which they are not attracted. Not bigotry or transphobia just plain bog standard reality and protected in law.

**Just like one can refuse to accept the existence or validity of exclusive same sex attraction
Or not be a homophobe

But not both"

👏👏👏

I think we are getting to the point where calling someone transphobic is on the same level as calling them "mean" or telling them to "be kind".

Here's the thing. one can:

• hold bigoted opinions about trans women and treat them like men

But one can't be both.

Just like one can refuse to accept the existence or validity of exclusive same sex attraction
Or not be a homophobe

But not both

Elaine Fuchs, could you elaborate on what 'men' are in this context?

• hold bigoted opinions about trans women and treat them like men
• not be transphobic

But one can't be both.

In the same way that refusing to date someone because they're black is racist, refusing to date a trans woman solely because she's trans is transphobic.

You're lumping some ideas together there. I wonder if there are many black women who are upset at the idea that members of, for example, the BNP won't "date" them.

I don't know if you actually know any black women, but no woman I know is so lacking in self-respect that she wants a white racist, who doesn't see her as a fully equal human being, sticking his penis in her, and then saying "I'm not racist- I have a black girlfriend". Nor do they want to have mixed race children with a man who will never be on his kids' side when those children experience racism growing up. In fact, avoiding that type of man is more of an issue, because some racist men get off on the idea of fetishising and fucking black women. There is an entire sort of porn devoted to it.

There are also racist white women who fetishise about fucking black men. In my own experience though, straight black men are just like straight white men- they don't seem to care nearly as much as women do about whether the person they're having sex with tonight respects them. Nor do they worry that racist sexual partners will pressure them into sexual acts they find too extreme.

So what is it about "trans women" that means they want to be dated by women who don't want to date "trans women"? Why are you raising the subject of racism when they're behaving nothing like black women?!

Actually, let's not be coy here. "Date"? Are these "trans women" really upset that they're not being asked out to the cinema? Or is it that they are truly desperate to go to an Italian restaurant?

No, they're angry that some women have looked at them and thought, "I could never find these people sexually attractive. I would not feel sexual excitement and arousal. My pulse rate would only increase in panic. I would not gasp in excitement as we undressed each other. My vagina would not lubricate, it would not experience tenting (the internal equivalent of a male erection- look it up), and no matter how I closed my eyes and pretended it was someone else doing it, I would never ever approach having an orgasm myself. I do not want to spend an evening getting that person to experience sexual satisfaction, with my hands, mouth or vagina, and I certainly don't want to risk pregnancy".

How many sexual encounters does a lesbian have to have with a "trans woman" before she gets awarded a lifetime Not a Transphobe Badge and can get on with pursuing mutually fulfilling sexual relationships with women who make her mouth go dry?

I don't think I could have been clearer about my thoughts on consent.

Well, you have made some self contradictory statements.

A "trans exclusionary event" might include any GC march/protest for example, they're all very poorly attended! If there is such widespread support for the movement, then there's no reason for public engagement to be so frail.

So a march for breast feeding mothers wouldalso be trans exlcuionary?
A kid's march for more sprinkles on a a McFlurry?
A men's march for more prostate screening?

Or is it just anything women might want to march?

And poorly attended? Frail? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about! Try reading round some of the 2019 threads, just before Covid hit. There were any number of women's meetings being threatened, cancelled because of threats, women being harrassed on their way in and out. Masked men, banging on doors and windows, shouting threats whilst the police just looked on, We were not fucking frail, we were being deliberately terrified.

Cant you see that you are completely erasing sexuality as a reality?

Sexualities CANNOT exist if you are insisting peoples actual sex doesn’t matter.

It’s not just homophobic, it’s insulting to everybody.

‘Lesbians’ who date TW are bisexual. So you’re neatly erasing all three sexualities, tied up in a nice little bow of ‘progression’. It’s grotesque.

I hardly know where to start with that reverse double think.

@ElaineFuchs it was well covered here and elsewhere at the time. I'll have a Search and find a thread or so for you. But really, you could just take my word for it, look, this came out of it!

lilymaynard.com/lesbians-on-chairs-the-event/

Please show me a credible survey of LGB communities showing any significant support for transphobia...

Erm, you seem to have reverse ferreted that. Nobody here would, LGB or straight, would support transphobia. We aren't. We just want wmen's rights not to be devalued.

It seems like most of the arguments you make are pretending I said something else horrible and knocking that down. I don't think I could have been clearer about my thoughts on consent.

I'm a straight male. I wouldn't not date a trans woman because they're trans. I wouldn't date them because they're male.

Exactly. It's just gaslighting, suggesting you are singling out a woman due to her gender identity, when that is not what is happening at all.

Sometimes when I can't sleep I try to figure out the new sexual orientation categories and find them impossible in that I end up going round in circles.

Anyone can say no to sex at any time, for any or no reason (except you must date someone you're not attracted to if they're trans cos otherwise it's transphobic).

Imagine saying that on a feminist board full of women Mind you, imagine saying that anywhere ......
It's coercive control writ large.

refusing to date a trans woman solely because she's trans is transphobic.

I'm a straight male. I wouldn't not date a trans woman because they're trans. I wouldn't date them because they're male.

There will then be no name for those groups which are oppressed on the basis of their sex.

These people don't remotely care.

The problem with ONLY self-identification for anything is that if it is going to affect rights, in general, then others must somehow be able to verify it.

IF we define 'women' and 'men' purely on the basis of self-identification, the concept of, say, 'women's rights' becomes almost meaningless. When Mary Wollstonecraft wrote about the vindication of the rights of woman she meant female-bodied people, and such phenomena as sex trafficking and female genital mutilation are not about self-identified individuals somehow being the target group.

There will then be no name for those groups which are oppressed on the basis of their sex.

Your homophobia is awful ElaineFuchs as is your misogyny and disablism.

Please show me a credible survey of LGB communities showing any significant support for transphobia...

If you don't mind, can you link to the videos of lesbians being removed for just being lesbian. Homophobia like that is awful.