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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why can’t we let the words go and start separating by DNA

65 replies

Intheshit1 · 13/03/2022 16:55

Why don’t we separate spaces, sport, prison, domestic abuse, report crime stats etc by what DNA we have. Sure there will be some people that do not fit XX and XY but we can deal with those people on a case by case basis and they can join a group that suits them the best. I assume this is what happens generally anyway.

I could request to see an XX doctor for a smear test. And I would not be able to compete with XY people at Olympic swimming. Crime stats should be reported based on DNA. Hospital wards could be XX or XY. Side effects of medicines would need to be reported by what DNA a person has. It would be made very clear that people with XY cannot give birth and don’t need tampons and that XX people don’t need a prostate exam.

Why don’t we just go down this route. It seems that the gender/sex argument is never going to be won. But… you can’t argue with DNA. Surely.

OP posts:
AmbushedByTheCake · 13/03/2022 18:25

I know that tone can be lost online.

I used to think I knew I could say what a woman was. But every scientific arguement I thought could be advanced to advocate the definition of women is wrong, or misleading, or outdated. This has been aggressively parroted at me hundreds of times. It has worn me down too much and I don't know what there is to say anymore.

Well done those of you still trying to fight for the idea we exist.

Zerogravity · 13/03/2022 18:24

Maybe this is just a sensitive topic as a very tall, not very fem, XX woman who has some genuine concerns that this could lead to women not letting me into bathrooms.
I seriously doubt that you have had any problems. Humans (or at least women) are very good at noticing sex. However, it is far more likely you would encounter problems nowadays when gender norms are becoming so fixed. NOW, women are being "mistaken" as non-binary or trans if they are not female presenting enough. This is a huge step backwards.

ApplesinmyPocket · 13/03/2022 18:22

"There is no such thing as man or woman. Gender and/or sex have been invented. But also, scientifically, there are loads of sexes."

Oooh, that's interesting! are there loads of sexes in eg, cows, too? It must make life very complicated for farmers.

Intheshit1 · 13/03/2022 18:20

I don’t get how this nonsense trumps my rights and beliefs.

My mother in law is religious. I’m not. Would it be ok for me to send her death threats, erase her church and start changing the law so she has to begin educating herself on atheists? Start deleting the word “Christian” because it’s not inclusive. Of course not. This is no different in my opinion. I believe sex matters. Why is that wrong.

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ZoeQ90 · 13/03/2022 18:17

but how do you determine who these 'men' are (meaning transwomen)? Are you just wanting female bathrooms only to be available to sufficiently fem people? If a 'man' (transwoman) passes as female, then that's ok? If a woman is butch, then that's not ok?
Maybe this is just a sensitive topic as a very tall, not very fem, XX woman who has some genuine concerns that this could lead to women not letting me into bathrooms.

Intheshit1 · 13/03/2022 18:16

Maybe the answer is to have 3 spaces/sports categories etc: Biological women, biological men, and people that don’t give a shit.

People that “don’t understand the threat” can go in the third place, tick the third box etc.

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lovelyweathertoday · 13/03/2022 18:14

@Intheshit1

Oh I completely agree Fairislefandango but I’m just thinking of a way we can win this argument. Every avenue is blocked. We get shouted down. Told we are wrong. Trend on Twitter for all the wrong reasons. Get called awful names.

How do we win this debate. I think the answer must lay in science.

Well we certainly don't win by backing down. We win by using the word woman only for women. Consistently, every single time we talk about women we use women. And we use men for men.

Footnote · 13/03/2022 18:13

What would you do with those people who are XXY, XXYY etc?

Ionlydomassiveones · 13/03/2022 18:11

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ZoeQ90 · 13/03/2022 18:04

I just do not get the threat. I'm happy to have transwomen in female bathrooms. Men who want to come in and be violent, will do it regardless of rules, norms etc.

VerveClique · 13/03/2022 18:03

I wonder how certain oppressive regimes work out who the women and girls are?

Ionlydomassiveones · 13/03/2022 18:01

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ashainspace · 13/03/2022 17:59

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Ionlydomassiveones · 13/03/2022 17:59

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ashainspace · 13/03/2022 17:58

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ZoeQ90 · 13/03/2022 17:58

So you'd all be happy to send someone who looks female, who's been raised female, who likely 'feels' female, into a men's bathroom just because they have Swyer syndrome and therefore have XY chromosomes?

Natfemale · 13/03/2022 17:53

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Intheshit1 · 13/03/2022 17:52

Oh I completely agree Fairislefandango but I’m just thinking of a way we can win this argument. Every avenue is blocked. We get shouted down. Told we are wrong. Trend on Twitter for all the wrong reasons. Get called awful names.

How do we win this debate. I think the answer must lay in science.

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Intheshit1 · 13/03/2022 17:49

But how can a trans woman know what it “feels like” to be a woman? They can’t. Just like I don’t know what it “feels like” to be an octopus, or a black person or an autistic person. I can have a few ideas and can guess a few things but I couldn’t possibly know accurately.

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Fairislefandango · 13/03/2022 17:47

When I think about what it is to be a woman. To be XX. It’s not my name. Or my hair. Or my voice. It’s not my job. My muscles. My fat distribution. My salary. It’s not even my ability to give birth. Or the fact I have breasts. It’s not the fact I can get ovarian cancer. It’s not my hormones. Or the fact I’m more likely to be a victim of domestic abuse and rape. It’s not that once upon a time I couldn’t vote. It’s not that I could go through dangerous FGM in certain countries. Bring a woman is something else in my opinion. Something that I can’t put into words. Something that you can’t pick and can’t buy.

My DNA builds me and other women to be very different to men. The way we work, the way we look, the way we smell, the way we feel. A person with XY will never know what it’s like to be a woman. No more than I can know what it’s like to be a man.

That doesn't mean that we should agree to pretend that the only way we can identify someone as a woman is by her chromosomes though. Having breasts (naturally), a uterus, being able to give birth does mean you're a woman. That doesn't mean there aren't women without those things, but anyone with those things is a woman. I am a woman. I'm not an 'XX' - because that's a scientific description of female chromosomes, it's not what an adult human female is called.

Bring a woman is something else in my opinion. Something that I can’t put into words. Something that you can’t pick and can’t buy.

That's beginning to sound a lot like what the TRAs say. Being a woman isn't something indefinable or hard to describe. A woman is an adult human female, of the class of human beings who have ovaries, produce eggs and have babies.

Donra · 13/03/2022 17:46

In most cases I’m not worried about chromosomes. It’s penises that I don’t want to share my space with.

Theunamedcat · 13/03/2022 17:45

So how do you get your chromosomes checked?

ZoeQ90 · 13/03/2022 17:44

Also, remember this is not only about excluding transwomen from female space, it would also force transmen to use female facilities. These are transmen, i.e., likely XX and therefore would be in your bathrooms and female-only spaces.
static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/30/t-magazine/oakImage-1580405768393/oakImage-1580405768393-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

ZoeQ90 · 13/03/2022 17:40

Except a) very few people know their chromosomes and b) some conditons mean XX can present male and XY as female (e.g., Swyer syndrome), so it's impractical and doesn't solve anything.

AmbushedByTheCake · 13/03/2022 17:39

@WouldIwasShookspeared

I'm really interested in the scientific evidence of "loads" of sexes. I'd love a link to a reputable scientific paper. I'm aware of male and female and I'm aware of the condition 'intersex' which varies in presentation and I'm aware of XXY but how many sexes is 'loads' and what are they?

How many of these newly discovered distinct sexes can bear children and what makes those sexes that can give birth to babies not the biological sex of XX aka woman?

This is fascinating and I'm looking forward to reading these scientific articles. Are they peer reviewed? Are any of them from the Lancet for example?

I would like to see them as well. I used to spend a lot of time in these debates on social media. Lots of links and websites and sources were shared on both sides.

But then I have no science specialism. I thought there was male/female, and then additional conditions or ongoing medical circumstances related to chromosomes or being intersex, that I couldn't claim any knowledge of beyond a surface reading in the media.

But any scientific parameters I advanced, in those hours I spend in those debates, were apparently obselete, or outdated, or offensive. The skeleton, DNA, biology, sex, atheletics, genetics - none of it trumps feelings.

So I've stopped debating, because I'm tired, and sad, and worn down. Women is not a thing you can define anymore.

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