Why can’t we let the words go and start separating by DNA

Are people deliberately misreading Ambushed?

It read as sarcasm or disdain/fatigue
/Exasperation about the arguments put forward by TRAs, not agreement...

So muscular, bearded, deep-voiced, testosterone-filled trans men, who in some cases had been raised as boys from early childhood, would be competing in women's sports, entering women-only spaces, giving you a smear test when you asked for a female doctor, answering women-only helplines etc? And any man under 6 foot could wander into the women's loos and claim he had XX chromosomes?

Ah, for you the solution is that we let obviously male people do these things instead, without question? I'm not sure why you think this is such a brilliant argument.

Hey, i think xx and xy sound a bit clunky rolling off the tongue.. maybe we could use words for them
... Oh like I dunno..

'Woman' for 'xx' and 'male' for 'xy'? Whatcha think?

I apologise, AmbushedByTheCake I did indeed misread you.

But I think my point about cows and farmers is still a good one for anyone who is a bit confused and there seem to be plenty of those about (not here.)

If we accept the gender identity theorist mantra that a woman is anyone who says "I am a woman", then anyone is a woman. Including those male transitioners who have just said "I am a woman" and done nothing else.

How can it be harder for a man to impersonate a fellow male at any stage of transitioning than a female transitioner?

Because others will bring up the 3 billion genders argument.
Because some will filibuster by talking about DSDs.
Because males are used to dictating terms.
Because some males want the (perceived) benefits they get from being validated as women.
And because others will use loopholes to commit acts of sexual violence.
Because too many people are too busy “being kind” - vomit emoji - to think about this stuff.

The only word necessary is no.

Still waiting to hear about all these other sexes and their role in reproduction. When I had my kids it was definitely sperm meets ova. Funnily enough in all my years studying biology I never came across a third gamete.

muscular, bearded, deep-voiced, testosterone-filled trans men,

Almost of whom are kind of cute and chubby and 5'1". (And not really deep-voiced).

And sexually non-threatening to women.

In a way transwomen distinctly aren't...

Any man could easily pass as a transwoman. Very few men could pass as a transman.

No, they wouldn’t be in womens sports if using testosterone, because that would be doping.

There is some very odd stuff happening on this thread. People with DSDs/VSDs have repeatedly asked to be left out of this debate, and I think most feminists are happy to respect that. Anyone trying to use that as a wedge issue or to sow discord needs to give their head a wobble.

Supplemental testosterone is a performance enhancing drug, whether you are taking it with improving sporting performance as an object or it is an unintended side-effect of taking this controlled substance for other reasons. So no.

And why would a transitioned female want to do anything like that which would out them as female?

And I thought no man would claim to be a transwoman in order to access female-spaces? So why would a man claim to be female to do it?

So muscular, bearded, deep-voiced, testosterone-filled trans men, who in some cases had been raised as boys from early childhood, would be competing in women's sports, entering women-only spaces, giving you a smear test when you asked for a female doctor, answering women-only helplines etc? And any man under 6 foot could wander into the women's loos and claim he had XX chromosomes?

Oh I completely agree Fairislefandango but I’m just thinking of a way we can win this argument. Every avenue is blocked. We get shouted down. Told we are wrong. Trend on Twitter for all the wrong reasons. Get called awful names.

How do we win this debate. I think the answer must lay in science.

I think the answer lies in giving this whole debate as much sunlight as possible. Not just in the cesspit of Twitter where the TRAs lurk, but in the mainstream press and in conversations between real people.

People are made to feel that they are in a sinful minority for not believing that TWAW. The sooner they (and political parties) realise that no, most people don't actually believe TW are literally women (even if they think it might sometimes be kind to treat them as though they are), the more the tide will turn. I think there are still a lot of people who honestly don't realise that the mantra TWAW is meant literally.

[quote ZoeQ90]Also, remember this is not only about excluding transwomen from female space, it would also force transmen to use female facilities. These are transmen, i.e., likely XX and therefore would be in your bathrooms and female-only spaces.
static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/30/t-magazine/oakImage-1580405768393/oakImage-1580405768393-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale[/quote]
I am not interested in clicking on your link.

Transmen are female. They are entitled to use female spaces, and when they use male ones they inconvenience themselves (male public toilets do not have sanitary bins and have fewer cubicles and many more urinals). Also, if you think transwomen are in danger in men's toilets, then surely female transitioners (being female!) are at equal or greater risk there.

Some female transitioners do wish to use the men's spaces though, and I am not their keeper. They pose little physical risk to men, and if men find it undignified to use urinals or get undressed in the presence of female transitioners, it is their job to make it known. I can't speak for men about what they're comfortable with.

I think Cake is just teasing us. They know they're talking bollocks :)

but how do you determine who these 'men' are (meaning transwomen)

They know if they are men or not. Men should use men's facilities or request additional ones if they prefer.

Or are you thinking that men will ignore women's requests for single-sex spaces therefore we shouldn't be allowed to have them? I don't think we should be ignoring the law that allows single-sex spaces just because some men object.

There are two sexes, both of which are need to procreate, that’s really all there is to it (with the caveat that yes there is a minuscule percentage of the population who could be classed as intersex). All this gender identity politics are just the reflection of a decadent and narcissistic society and I’m sure it will all blow over soon amongst the younger population at least. The middle aged incel types who are using gender as a stick to beat women with will be seen as the lunatic fringe.

Public toilets are never going to be policed but it's not true that rapists will "just barge in" anyway. They are not perfect but they are MUCH safer for women than gender neutral aka mixed sex facilities. And I don't see why we should be forced to forego safety and dignity because a small subset of males don't like being male. We are half the population. Our needs are more important.

I am a genealogist. (professionally). Part of what I do involves DNA testing, helping people find matches or make sense of tests. Y DNA is handed down from father to son and doesn't mutate much along the way so is really useful for tracking your male line back. Similarly, mitrochondrial DNA is handed from mother to daughter.

However you feel, however you present, whatever clothes you wear and however much surgery you have to alter your body, if you were born with XX chromosomes you cannot take a Y DNA test. And similarly, no amount of surgery or hormones is going to allow someone who was born with an XY chromosome to take a mitrochondrial DNA test.

Genealogists are a very gender critical bunch as a whole because we work with this XX and XY every day.

Sorry - just realised you are making the same point, @ZoeQ90 !