How will we ever get these disgraceful Tories out, if Starmer keeps spouting this nonsense?

It's not good policy if it doesn't address how to make it work, but that's not a failure around women's issues as such.

Identity politics are toxic, and frankly against any kind of traditional leftism. It's altogether different than what someone engaged with an old-school leftist position would accept as a good policy approach.

While seriously problematic in itself, this issue is symbolic of a more serious ideological problem in the Labour party, that is completely antithetical to a functioning liberal democracy.

Pragmatism is a great protection in many ways. The Conservatives have rather poor leadership at the moment (though unlike some I don't think BJ is in fact stupid) and they are all to enthralled with neoliberalism which is in no way actually conservative. But they are practical. Practical in that if BJ becomes too much of a liability they will get rid of him, in that they will not knowingly pursue a policy that will make them unelectable, and there is something reassuring about that - it suggests that they are likely even in other areas, like international relations, to base their actions on the political realities of the situation.

I would love to see other political groups emerge that were not so immersed in identity politics, but it really seems to have taken over the mainstream left.

Self Id was not a Tory policy, what makes you think it was?

If the policy of self id comes in then women will suffer.
How many women will have to suffer?
How many suffering is too many?
How long to change a law?
How long to change a mindset after a law has been in place for 1 year? 2 years? 10 years?

We cannot afford to let this through.

And as Whittle so smugly points out; they only have to win once.
Actually, I don't think that's true.
I think if self ID (A TORY POLICY) comes in itll be overturned at somepoint , once its seen to not work and disadvantage women.

Please don't. Tories are no friends to women either.

People always say this, but then you get an actually good speech in the house by a person who clearly understands this issue and cares about it, and guess what - chance are it's a Tory. And by chances I mean almost certainly.

If MPs, of whatever stripe, who actually are willing to support material reality on this issue, get votes, that will send a message. Maybe at some point, the LP will actually clue in.

Good post Artichoke and absolutely agree with this

And as Whittle so smugly points out; they only have to win once. Women have to bloody try over and over and over and over again and never rest, because no one else gives the faintest toss about them.

Women's equality is absolutely fucked if one of the captured parties gains power. Spoiling papers... yes it makes a gesture and it hands the responsibility to others. I shall be voting tactically to try and keep the candidates most dangerous to women's rights out of office. And as Whittle so smugly points out; they only have to win once. Women have to bloody try over and over and over and over again and never rest, because no one else gives the faintest toss about them.

I am so so tired of parties thinking they can shit all over women's rights and still expect out support because we'll put other priorities first

Me too but to be honest for the last however long, we have accepted that after the revolution itll be our turn. We have been the tea maker and walked the streets to post flyers, engage with the man on the street in order to get through the revolution.

Problem is with this issue it's far too important and come at the wrong time. We are sick of being told to wait our turn til the men have spoken and we cannot let this become a legal thing.
Someone somewhere took women for granted. They obviously thought because we had stood up for every other minority that this would be a cake walk to sell to us.
Well I'm not sold and I'm fucking angry that we have to start and fund court cases to regain what we already had.
And yet more galling, we get called names now, after we've done our part for all minorities but balk at this which is as fundamental as it gets.

There is an answer to this, although it's not an easy one. Women need to join the left wing parties and get involved.

Like Karen Ingala Smith from the Femicide Census tried to? kareningalasmith.com/2020/06/27/why-i-was-rejected-for-labour-party-membership-and-my-response/

Labour don't want "people like us" any more than the Lib Dems or the Greens.

Labour have not actually said they will support self ID. Until that happens, to me their actual policies would be better for most women than the Conservatives.

From the 2019 Labour Party manifesto...

Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people..

I've seen nothing since to suggest they've had a change of heart.

Not a cat in hells chance I'm voting Tory. I am not a turkey, thank you.

Spot the Labour voter; insult anyone with a different opinion to you.

I've never voted Tory but I will at the next election because of this issue. I will not vote Labour because they are treating women with contempt and the people who vote for them appear to treat the non Labour voting electorate with contempt. It's a hard no from me just in case it's contagious.

I'm listing all the actual things the Tories have done versus the potential risk of a different party allowing self ID so males can undress next to females.
As I said, if Labour/Lib Dems or Greens made it actual policy to implement self ID, I wouldn't vote for them.
It's only the last couple of years the conservatives have moved position, having previously been TWAW, and I doubt that's because they've suddenly turned feminist

And you are also dismissing and minimising womens real concerns and expecting us to put our priorities behind other issues.

Starmer has made it very clear that he wants to make it easier for men to id as women and all that that implies. He has said that he sees some men as women. Why should we just assume he's lying?

If he can't or won't support women now, why would we believe that he'll suddenly think of womens and girls safety and dignity when in power?

I've no doubt that everyone here would be equally critical of Johnson or any conservative leader if they said the same thing.

Women are allowed to talk and prioritise an issue that's important to them. If political activist don't like that, tough.

Money is on offer, if people can secure their relatives home by providing care. They get the inheritance. And in families its pretty obvious who'll be expected to protect the inheritance or be seen as selfish
This has always been the case. Plenty of threads on here alone but other forums too about looking after granny so her home doesn't have to be sold for care fees.
Plenty more on how to get granny in care for free and sell her house anyway.

And if you dont own your own home?
You are paid for anyway.

Even were we to join and pay, we would be the equivalent of the envelope licker/poster and be told "after the revolution we'll get to your issues sister"

This ^^ I am so so tired of parties thinking they can shit all over women's rights and still expect out support because we'll put other priorities first.

Imagine if a party said they were going to do something that would predominantly impact men, even something vaguely daft such as saying once elected they were going to ban football on terrestrial tv and cancel Match of the Day.

Nobody would be turning to football fans and saying "ah they might be saying that about MotD, but their other policies are better so you have to vote for them." No, the party would be vilified by the press and told instantly they couldn't expect any votes from football fans and to prepare for electoral defeat. The policy would be gone by midday.

But of course no party would ever do something that daft. Match of the Day is a national institution, something important, not like the fundamental definition and rights of women.

Capitalism is built on exploitation. Of course the Conservatives don't want to pay for care.

That sounds like a good start to me.

Shahrar Ali, ex green party spokesperson is suing the party after being sacked for stating gender critical beliefs. I don't know if that's the massive progress you mean?

I'd be very interested to hear what changes are afoot in the Greens.

Does saying "these disgraceful Tories" imply that there is another party which is not disgraceful? Because I don't know of one.

There is a similar fightback going on in the Liberal Democrats

twitter.com/LibVoice4Women/status/1503117498622918658?s=20&t=_31xpA50r7lVBZpDnalk8A

There is an answer to this, although it's not an easy one. Women need to join the left wing parties and get involved.

I did say it wasn't easy. :D The Greens have made massive progress on this, even if we're not there yet. It can be done.

There is an answer to this, although it's not an easy one. Women need to join the left wing parties and get involved.

And be another women like Rosie Duffield who Starmer watches get abuse and does nothing? He said that she was wrong to say only woman have a cervix. Labour are more than a few women getting involved from protecting women and girls from this ideology.

There is an answer to this, although it's not an easy one. Women need to join the left wing parties and get involved

We've been through all this the last few years.
It boils down to why pay to join a party that thinks you dont exist?
I have limited funds, I'm not going to squander them on being ignored.
Even were we to join and pay, we would be the equivalent of the envelope licker/poster and be told "after the revolution we'll get to your issues sister"

If a party elite cannot see the major issues even now then I don't want to be a member, if the party elite are so fucking shallow that what a man says is true and they are to be trusted implicitly and everything revolves around men then I give no fucks any more.
It takes zero skills to see what we all see.
I will not be patronised and pay for that.

There is an answer to this, although it's not an easy one. Women need to join the left wing parties and get involved.
The Greens made very real progress at their recent conference, successfully kicking a number of batshit TRA motions to the kerb and pushing through GC amendments on others.
The sunlight that we needed is happening. It's no longer easy for TRAs to sneak through anti-woman policy while disguising it as 'inclusive'. A lot of ordinary party members aren't happy and won't support them.
If we want our left wing parties back, we need to take them. Join the party that should best suit you, get to know who's who, vote whenever you can in internal elections.
Every single TRA who is in power in these parties was voted in, sometimes by quite small internal margins. They can be voted out again.
We can do it. We just need to puuuuuuuullllll.